The 3 Types of Rounder RK's

[tom hansen]

If anyone's interested I can direct them to a dealer's site which has two "800" marked EK 2s available right now. You can buy them (Euro 90 each) and see for yourself whether they are solid silver or merely plated.

Thanks George. Are they authentic? Are they world war 2 or imperial crosses? Has anyone seen another plated RK that has a "800" stamp? Are any of the other rounders silver plated, or is this the only one that is currently known to be plated? Thanks

I did SEM testing on two world war two era K&Q EK2s, both of which were silver plated neusilber. Neither was 800 marked. There was an imperial EK1 marked 800 which was 91% silver, with no evidence of plating.

[George Stimson]

Tom, I just said that they were on a dealer's site. (And yes, they are 1939 versions. Excuse me for not being specific, but this is a "Wehrmacht" Cross Forum so I assumed we were talking about '39s.) Are they authentic? I don't know. But just because I don't know that they're authentic doesn't mean I know (or anyone knows) that theyre not. If anyone is interested, I'll send them the dealer's URL and they can buy them and do all the research they want. PM me if interested.

[tom hansen]

Tom, I just said that they were on a dealer's site. (And yes, they are 1939 versions. Excuse me for not being specific, but this is a "Wehrmacht" Cross Forum so I assumed we were talking about '39s.) Are they authentic? I don't know. But just because I don't know that they're authentic doesn't mean I know (or anyone knows) that theyre not. If anyone is interested, I'll send them the dealer's URL and they can buy them and do all the research they want. PM me if interested.

Sure- Send me the website. I think it is interesting if we can find authentic pieces that are silver plated, yet marked "800". Again, if anyone has ever seen such an RK before, please post some images.

[George Stimson]

Okay, Tom. I sent it to you. (And to the other people who asked! Hey you guys, when you're through with them would you sell one to me? )

[tom hansen]

I can't find the 1513 one, but the 1503 EK2 is marked 800 on the ring. I was looking for an authentic piece that is marked 800 on the frame, yet is silver plated.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I was looking for an authentic piece that is marked 800 on the frame, yet is silver plated.

Look at post #1

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

I'm assuming, of course, but I had thought that marks on rings referred to the EKs, not just to the rings. I mean, I assume that a "65" mark on an EK ring means that the EK was made by K&Q, not just the ring. So perhaps the same would be true of silver content marks on rings -- that is, they refer to the cross? Can anyone shed some light on this?

[George Stimson]

Okay, I just checked the site again. Item # 1503 is described as being ring marked "800" with silver frames. Item # 1513 is described as ring marked "800" with Neusilber frames.

[tom hansen]

Look at post #1

Dietrich

That whole issue is a point of debate that I do not want to get into. What I am specifically asking is whether another RK of a known maker has an 800 stamp on the frame, yet is not solid silver. Wartime pieces would not be expected to occur in isolation, therefore we should expect further such examples.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Wartime pieces would not be expected to occur in isolation, therefore we should expect further such examples.

What makes you think that? I know of at least two types that are isolated so far, but that does not mean that there are not more out there. And how would one know that a piece is just plated if the silver plating is not worn? Nobody saw it the first time Tony was posting the cross. And without recent SEM testing, even Juncker and K&Q or whatever could have been plated.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

What makes you think that? I know of at least two types that are isolated so far, but that does not mean that there are not more out there. And how would one know that a piece is just plated if the silver plating is not worn? Nobody saw it the first time Tony was posting the cross. And without recent SEM testing, even Juncker and K&Q or whatever could have been plated.

Dietrich

What two types are you referring to? I did not say that there were not more out there. Quite to the contrary, I think there are probably more plated rounders out there. I was just asking if anyone has seen one, or an established wartime RK of a known maker that has 800 stamp on a silver plated piece.

[Dietrich Maerz]

What two types are you referring to?

- Detlev page 490
- Gordon page 262

And yes, I also think that there are more silver-plated Rounders out there. Maybe also with "800' stamp, but maybe not? There are several Rounders with etched frosting already and also some with painted frosting, so this would just be logical to exspect more of one type.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

- Detlev page 490
- Gordon page 262

And yes, I also think that there are more silver-plated Rounders out there. Maybe also with "800' stamp, but maybe not? There are several Rounders with etched frosting already and also some with painted frosting, so this would just be logical to exspect more of one type.

Dietrich

The one in Gordon's book is silver plated, but is "totally unmarked". This is in contrast to the piece in question, which is silver plated, yet stamped 800. Also, the piece on P 490 of Detlev's catalog is unmarked and no mention is made of plating. Both are "unique", in that other examples have not been shown identical to these pieces. As recalled from the thread on the Detlev piece, there still seems to be debate as to whether this represents a wartime piece. This is in contrast to a rounder, which is piece of which there are multiple examples. This would be analagous to a S&L or juncker with a silver plated frame and 800 marked. There have not been such examples exhibited at this time. There are unmarked neusilber and unmarked silver, but not 800 marked plated silver. Gordon also notes on P 274 a silver framed 3/4 ring piece, yet no "800" stamp. Why the unique treatment of a plated piece here on the piece in question?

Gordon does note silver plated RKs on P269. "Knights Crosses with silver-plated frames should not necessarily be considered as post war reproductions, however, as pieces in non-regulation materials were indeed manufactured fro retail sale as well as other purposes...... That some such pieces were purchased by Ritterkreuztreager as duplicates is well known (he describes a private purchase piece by a RK winner)...This example is compeltely unmarked.

So getting back to the 800 stamp on a silver plated piece. Is there ANY example of any documented wartime cross which is silver plated being stamped , "800"? Thanks

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

my two examples were examples of "isolated pieces", not pieces of silver-plated with or without stamp. I could that easily deduct by reading the description in both books, by the way.

The cross in DN book is the actual award piece to General Dollmann, awarded in 1940. I discussed this with Detlev and I have not the slightest doubt that this is the case.

Just because there is no other example(s) known to "us" (= a very small community) it just doesn't mean anything at all. So please do not fall into the trap that - if 'nobody' answers your call for another wartime cross with silver-plating and marked "800" - you think you might conclude there is none on the whole face of the earth. That's why I brought forward the two isolated crosses, by the way....

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

The thing that is more odd to me is not the "uniqueness" of this piece, but the stamping of a plated piece, which is clearly not solid silver, with a silver content stamp. Is this to be considered a mistake? Would a manufacturer of RKs take such a risk and stamp a piece as 800 silver content, when in fact it is not?