The 3 Types of Rounder RK's

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, you wouldn't have these very deep striation marks if the intent was to merely 'polish' the flange. The striations are deep and constant and clearly show evidence of forceful working of the flange to remove, scrape or otherwise remove material from the surface!!!

I have compared the flanges of the later type frosted crosses and they so a DRAMATIC difference in the finish.....the flanges are much smoother.

The flanges on the early S&L and JUncker crosses that are acid etched show a great deal of 'working' while the other do not.

That is significant.....the acid washing was much more difficult to remove than the later material used thus leaving greater scars on the flang.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

I just don't understand your last posting. But I would like to make my point clear with a quick scetch.

1. This is the unetched frame

2. You say: The whole frame is etches, so there is material removed and the fraem becomes a little bit thinner and has now the overall rough frosting finish.

3. Now you say it is polished, i.e. the etched surface is smoothed out and only the small border to the beading is left 'frosted' as can be seen on all the pictures above.

Now I hope the scetch shows that this is impossible:

You cannot smooth out a rough surface and also RAISE this surface above it's original niveau! It must be lower or at least even. But this is not the case at all!

It is unfortunate that we had to discuss this in this thread (again) since I really wnated more a discussion about what members think about the existence of three distinct types of Rounder (no matter what or how the process of achieving this variant was achieved).

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Good morning Dietrich! Look at your crosses and particularly at those which have been voided of the early frosting. Do you see a step up or down?


Or, is the flange one smooth plane?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Good morning Dave!

The one's that have chemical (etched) frosting have a step UP from the etching to the polishing, i.e. polished surface is HIGHER. As shown by multiple pictures above. Also, one can see polishing lines been interrupted by the etched frosting.

The ones with the painted frosting show a step DOWN, i.e. the painted frosting sits clearly on top of the polished surface. As can be seen by polishing lines disappearing under the 'paint'.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Ok, then let's go for a new thread!

[George Stimson]

"I really wnated more a discussion about what members think about the existence of three distinct types of Rounder (no matter what or how the process of achieving this variant was achieved)."

But what about this thread? Does anybody have any thoughts on Dietrich's discovery?

[Dietrich Maerz]

I guess the only two gentlemen that did participate are of the opinion that this does not matter and it is a fake anyway. Because that's what they believe, not know (I guess...)

I challange the 'opposition' to please come up with some founded, reasonable and logic explanation why it is so obvious that the alledged fakers went thru these three stages. Something more as the usual hypothesis that they just did it....or somebody else did it ...

I personally think I owe it not only to the owners of the Rounders but also to the spirit of this forum to be more specific. That's why I go thru the trouble finding out more about "obscure" things and I just don't think it's fair that it's just brushed away because of .... I really don't know why?

To make the point clear: I don't want to sell my Rounder, I don't want to push the price up or down nor do I try to force somebody or anybody into buying one. I just want to have a scientific discussion and usefull input. And this is also what was expressed to me in numerous PM's and e-mails....


Thank you!

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

I thought this was a frosting discussion and not a rounder discussion. Sorry- I think the issue of frosting is interesting, but I for one am not interested in rounder discussions one way or another.


I think part of the premise of the discussion was that the acid bath treatment is early and painted frosting is late. Therefore, pieces with acid treatment to create the frosted effect are early. As noted before, lazy 2s do not all have painted frosting. Allan has one with painted frosting. I have two that do not. K&Qs are presumably later war and do not have painted frosting. Therefore, it does not seem to be accurate to conclude that acid treatment or rhodium is early.

[George Stimson]

Dietrich

Well, I commend you on the time and effort you have spent on your research. And although I personally believe that the Rounder issue has not been proven (one way or another) I have to admit that with all of the information you have come up with there is nothing that would disprove that they were manufactured pre-1945. As for the opposing view, I would have to say that I have seen no evidence whatsoever that proves that they were manufactured post-1945. All that has been offered from that point of view is opinion coupled with recollections which demonstrate an inability to acknowledge that anything outside of one's experience can have any validity. It's not substantive evidence, by any means.
I guess the whole situation can be summed up with a variation of an old expression: If it walks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, and quacks like a duck -- some people will probably still insist that it's a chicken!

[George Stimson]

"I thought this was a frosting discussion and not a rounder discussion."

Tom, read the title of the thread. It did get off topic into a frosting discussion, but this thread was intended to be about Rounders.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I think part of the premise of the discussion was that the acid bath treatment is early and painted frosting is late. Therefore, pieces with acid treatment to create the frosted effect are early. .... Therefore, it does not seem to be accurate to conclude that acid treatment or rhodium is early.

Tom,

I don't know about Rhodium, which would be a kind of surface plating anyway, not so much a 'frosting' issue.

But I do know this:

- the etched frosting was the method as described in pre-45 publications
- the A-Types of S&L I have seen (so before approx. 44 or so) have the etched frosting
- later B-Types and (some) Lazy 2's have the painted frosting
- the S&L I consider post-war have the painted frosting
- a lot of crosses have no visible painted frosting left or maybe had not even some applied (as my Rounder and your Lazy 2's and the K&Q)

That's why I conclude that the etched frosting was an earlier method. For sure it was a war-time method!

However, EK1/EK2 frosting is always painted (if present)! So this "painted frosting" was known from the (very) beginning.

Based on this circumstantial evidence I conclude for myself that the Rounder is war time, because of the consistent use of the typical war time methods, ranging from plated brass over etched frosting to painted frosting to none at all. I think it is evidence! I also think that no faker would have done that! Why? It was not known in the "early 80's"!

Dietrch

P.S.: I will dive into SEM regarding frosting composition and material very soon. Also the reduction of non-silver content in the etched area will be SEM'ed. I'm not giving up to find out more that it is known (and cast in stone by some) today.

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, that's a pretty broad statement...especially the use of "ALWAYS"!!


Sometimes experience is the best master

Here are 2 very nicely frosted IC2nd crosses...very thickly frosted in the CHEMICAL method.

[Dave Kane]

1

[George Stimson]

I wish people would stay on the intended topic of this thread and discuss frosting variations in another thread if they are so inclined.

[Dave Kane]

Tom,

I don't know about Rhodium, which would be a kind of surface plating anyway, not so much a 'frosting' issue.

But I do know this:

- the etched frosting was the method as described in pre-45 publications
- the A-Types of S&L I have seen (so before approx. 44 or so) have the etched frosting
- later B-Types and (some) Lazy 2's have the painted frosting
- the S&L I consider post-war have the painted frosting
- a lot of crosses have no visible painted frosting left or maybe had not even some applied (as my Rounder and your Lazy 2's and the K&Q)

That's why I conclude that the etched frosting was an earlier method. For sure it was a war-time method!

However, EK1/EK2 frosting is always painted (if present)! So this "painted frosting" was known from the (very) beginning.

Based on this circumstantial evidence I conclude for myself that the Rounder is war time, because of the consistent use of the typical war time methods, ranging from plated brass over etched frosting to painted frosting to none at all. I think it is evidence! I also think that no faker would have done that! Why? It was not known in the "early 80's"!

Dietrch

P.S.: I will dive into SEM regarding frosting composition and material very soon. Also the reduction of non-silver content in the etched area will be SEM'ed. I'm not giving up to find out more that it is known (and cast in stone by some) today.

George...is one expected NOT to respond to the above unless a specific thread is created? I'm just offering a retort to the "always" assertion. If there's no response it could eventually become accepted....now that wouldn't be good at all