The 3 Types of Rounder RK's

[Dave Kane]

I like this one!!!!

""Do we have a confused or over-cautious faker who wanted to fake his model along the production lines of 'real' crosses - just to make sure? A faker that was such a thourough and detailled freak that he even dove heavy into the chemical frosting process and got it perfectly right, but messed up the corners (because some don't like those)?""

Let's not forget the very recent Oaks and (speckled) DKiG....almost perfection and introduced at the highest levels until POUNDED out of the hobby!

[George Stimson]

But Dave, no one could say that Rounders are "very recent."

[Dave Kane]

I know George but we didn't have the facility 20 years ago to examine in detail almost instantly, as we have today!

[George Stimson]

20 -- or almost 40 -- years ago

Nor was there a means to widely disseminate obscure information regarding frosting techniques and/or plated brass frames that a faker could replicate on repro RKs.

[Dave Kane]

Oh come on now!!!! Look the frosting on the (Brit) S&L crosses...look at the frosting on Souval crosses.

I recall a show in which John Floch couldn't give away KvK1st because they were just plain..unfrosted.............

Next show they sold out! Within 6 months they had a beautiful thick coating of FROSTING!

Who has a nice 20X view of one of these?


George....SOUVAL produced RK's in 1960......45+ years ago and John was pushing his goods as early as 1974 to my recall

[George Stimson]

Okay, Dave. Point taken.

"Who has a nice 20X view of one of these?" That view would be interesting to see. Does anybody have a frosted Souval or Brit S&L they can contribute to this research project? (And now that I think about it, can anybody post a pic of a Brit-made S&L? I've never seen one.)

[Dietrich Maerz]

Oh come on now!!!! Look the frosting on the (Brit) S&L crosses...look at the frosting on Souval crosses.

I recall a show in which John Floch couldn't give away KvK1st because they were just plain..unfrosted.............

Next show they sold out! Within 6 months they had a beautiful thick coating of FROSTING!

Who has a nice 20X view of one of these?


George....SOUVAL produced RK's in 1960......45+ years ago and John was pushing his goods as early as 1974 to my recall

Fact is this:

The post war S&L, starting most likely with the 935 DO NOT have the chemical frosting, they have the painted frosting. No 1957 RK that I have seen has the real frosting. The very late S&L (heavily flawed B-Type) have no frosting. Actually, the pre-45 S&L 935-4 and Juncker Lazy-2 have no real frosting, just painted frosting.

I don't think that it neither can be said that the "Brit S&L" (which is not a proven fact so far) nor any other post war fake or repro (Souval, Floch,..) has the real frosting. Painted, yes! And that's what Dave talks about.

So please let's not confuse the issue here. So far, real frosting stoped being used during the war! Even the Holy Grail od RK investors has no real frosting: the lazy 2 has painted frosting.

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Dietrich

Okay, then if the frosting of the second Rounder you just posted is the chemically applied type -- not the painted type found on late and post-war pieces -- than its presence does suggest wartime manufacture. (Unless someone can produce a verified post-war piece with chemically applied frosting.)

[Dietrich Maerz]

George,

this is exactly my point.

But not only the existence of a Rounder with real frosting, but also the existence of a Rounder with silver plated brass frame supports the notion of pre-45 very strongly.

Meanwhile it is very tough to hold up the faker theory with all the models, procedures and different stages of wear for this cross type. Compare that to the straight forward and badly produced post-45 S&L that still can be bought on several dealer sites for very serious money. Now, S&L didn't care in quality and by far not in applying the real frosting (even during the war!) but the so called fakers for the Rounder did? After switching from a silver plated brass frame? Come on!

Just to help a little, here is again a picture of "real frosting" on the Rounder.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

And here is the "painted frosting" on a 800 Type-A S&L, the model before the 935-4. I hope everybody can see the difference.

[tom hansen]

" lazy 2 has painted frosting."

Dietrich[/QUOTE]



There was no paint on the beading or rim of a micro 2 juncker RK checked under SEM. No paint. No rhodium. Just silver. The piece is mint, so it is unlikely that it was applied and wore off.


"Rounder you just posted is the chemically applied type -- not the painted type found on late and post-war pieces -- than its presence does suggest wartime manufacture"


We don't know that. That is conjecture. I think the presence of painted "frosting" that Dietrich found on post war RKs was a suprise to everyone.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

maybe yours didn't have the painted frosting applied or it was cleaned off. That does not make the rule for all. Look at this very nice, un-unpacked Lazy 2 from Mike, fresh from the factory and therefore in "stage 1": clearly painted frosting. So yours is somehow altered or frosting was never applied. Not the rule, rather the exeption.

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

"'Rounder you just posted is the chemically applied type -- not the painted type found on late and post-war pieces -- than its presence does suggest wartime manufacture '"


"We don't know that. That is conjecture."

Right. That's why I wrote "suggest" rather than "prove." (Now I'm waiting to see a definite post-war RK that has chemically applied frosting.)

[tom hansen]

Dietrich- I have another, a lazy 2, that look just like it and just like the mint piece above. Both are mint and one in cellophane. Only one was tested. There was no paint. I think the only way to tell is through confirmation by chemical analysis, either SEM or IR spec. I do not think one can say that lazy 2 pieces have painted frosting, when the only piece that actually been tested does not have paint. Maybe that piece is an anomoly. Maybe there is no paint on lazy 2s. It has not worn off, because it is mint. We do not know what the rule actually is, as only one piece has been evaluated. I have a few pieces to test with SEM, I just need the time. I will check out the mint lazy 2 in the next few months.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

you will be able to determine whether your two crosses have (had) any painted frosting or not - just look between the beadings and inside the marking. If it had painted frosting, there will be traces. You should alo be able to find out whether your two crosses have the real frosting - this will not go away.

I can't help you with the "one cross tested - all must be like this" approach. Does not work for me, I rather look at a broader base. Maybe this picture will help you to recognize the painted frosting on the "ex works, unpacked" Lazy 2 from Mike. Look inside the marking. See the painted frosting residue? Good!

Another interesting sentence from you and I thank you for that:

"I think the presence of painted "frosting" that Dietrich found on post war RKs was a suprise to everyone."

So it was no surprise to the alledged Rounder faker! They knew the right way to do it and did not do one of two accepted things:

- painted frosting (as on the S&L's and Lazy 2's)
- no frosting at all (as on your two Lazy 2's and others)

No, they used the real prescribed frosting method! They could have fooled the possible buyers with painted or none, but no. And as you said, the painted frosting came as a surprise just recently...

Dietrich