The 3 Types of Rounder RK's

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

could you show the "800" silver stamp on the EK2's, please?

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

Dave

Okay, perhaps. But what does the presence of painted frosting on an EK 2 have to do with Dietrich's discovery of chemically-etched frosting on a Rounder? This thread has been off track for a while now. Can't we discuss Dietrich's points -- the reason he started the thread in the first place -- please? All of this other stuff is a distraction from the intended subject matter.

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich...they aren't marked w/ 800 and I suspect they are plated!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Okay,

if they are not silver they do not have the frosting I'm talking here about. The process of Weiss-Sieden works only with solid silver (not even plated).

So, please accept my sincere apologies for the use of "always" and let me clarify like this:

" EK1 and EK2 are NORMALLY NOT made with silver frames and since the Weiss-Sieden works only with silver ( in the context we discussed it here with the RK's) the frosted EK1 and EK2's will have a painted frosting. Based on my experience, which served me well so far."

There might be however some out there which I have not seen up till today -but that does not mean they are not in existence before I see them.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Although I offered a thread about frosting methods earlier we keep going back to it here!!!

Is it possible that there are other methods of CHEMICAL frosting utilized for various grades of silver????

I'd hate to lose the continuity here in starting a new....

George can the thread be 'cut' and re-created?

[George Stimson]

"George can the thread be 'cut' and re-created?"

Actually, I think it can. It might not be the most coherent end-product -- but people here are probably used to that!
Let me see what I can do.

[tom hansen]

Just one observation. Am I correct in understanding that the piece posted is silver plated and "800" marked? If the piece posted is silver plated and is marked "800", would that not be a violation of the policy of the PK? Would a wartime maker of RKs take such a risk? There are other examples of silver plated pieces, such as EK1s and EK2s, but they are not marked "800". Is there any other example of a wartime piece which is silver plated, not solid silver, and is marked "800"? Other examples of neusilber and silver plated wartime RKs are not marked "800". Why the discrepancy?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

yes, the silver plated piece is marked "800" and that is not so much a violation of the PKZ but rather a possible violation of the german hallmarking procedure. I'm still looking into that and I know of other examples where this was the case. Gordon Wiliamson in one of his books decribes the practice/possiblity to hallmark regarding the silver content of the plating. However, I could not confirm nor disapprove this up to date.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Thanks Dietrich-


Are you sure that the plated pieces to which Gordon refers were "800" marked? Why aren't the plated EK1s and EK2s marked "800" as well? Thanks

[George Stimson]

If anyone's interested I can direct them to a dealer's site which has two "800" marked EK 2s available right now. You can buy them (Euro 90 each) and see for yourself whether they are solid silver or merely plated.

[Tiger 1]

Marking badges and decorations with a silver mark when it is made of a different base material is not unknown in the EK series. I have an '14 EKI that is three piece construction and is all magnetic. Yet it is plainly marked 800. I also have EKs that are certainly silver based that aren't marked in any way. So what? Even some of the tests performed on the composition of various frames showed that the silver marking rarely matched the actual percentage of the silver content.

Material substitution is well known and well documented in the EK/KC series. Zinc cores, brass cores, plated brass frames etc. All these variations are contra the original design specs for the EK/KC series of awards. The fact that a non silver frame has a silver proof mark is more proof that even the 'precise and methodical' Germans are capable of either ocassional mistakes or were engaged in an attempt of commercial petty larceny. What else would explain any substitution from the specified iron and silver or iron and neusilber specifications laid out by the goverment?

In 1941 an official edict was issued sternly reminding manufacturors to cut out the use of non specified materials under penalty. Why this stern reminder? It leads one to infer that more than a few manufacturors were skimping on the materials used in the manufacture of decorations. How can that be in the TR? The answer is simple. Business! After all the medals and orders producing companies besides crafting decorations were in business to make a PROFIT. I think that there was enough blatant 'profiteering' going on in the early part of the war that it became a necessary for stricter regulation, hence the formation of the LDO to oversee such matters of compliance. Why else was it necessary to put out the edict?

On to the KC in question.

Looking at the greatly magnified picture that 'shows' what is purported to be brass is interesting to say the least. One would assume that with the wear patterns elsewhere on the frame that more of this brass would be seen with the naked eye. Silver plating is not very thick. Further, if the "silver plating" shows that much patina it would follow that the 'brass' would not be so bright and would also show a dark (brownish hued) patina? This actuallity is very easily seen on worn early German army daggers and swords that have brass based silver or gilt plated hilt fittings. Sorry I digress here slightly.

I would be very interested in seeing if an actual test for silver content by a jeweler will confirm or negate the 800 silver marking on that KC. As the KC in question is mine I will have this done by a competant jeweler when this KC is in my posession again. I'll post the results.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

[Dietrich Maerz]

Are you sure that the plated pieces to which Gordon refers were "800" marked? Why aren't the plated EK1s and EK2s marked "800" as well? Thanks

- that's what he says in his earlier book
- I don't know why or whether EK1 and/or EK2's, which are silver plated, are marked or not marked.

Dietrich

[vonStubben]

Just last year I gave up researching for a book that dealt with the various fake Knights Crosses which permiate the market. I was quite tired of going to shows and seeing all the fakes being sold by dealers, for large sums of money, as "original" KC's, when indeed they were not, although sworn as being original. It was meant to be a small, easily carried handbook.
However, due to time constraints, and given the excellent work by Gordon Williamson, and other pending works, I decided not to continue my endevour.

For more than 4 years I had gathered up as many different KC types that I could find. Since 1963, I have owned 8 to 10 Souval made examples alone, in both L/58 marked nickle silver, and 800 silver marked frames. I have also had numerous examples of the early European made copies with the dipping ring, the new three piece examples being made in England, as well as the Latvian copies too. Needless to say, I had a bunch of them all at one time, and have seen many more that I was unable to purchase or borrow.

The most interesting thing about ALL of them, is that not a single one had any frosting, of any type, either painted or etched. Not one!

I have sought out the "English" made S&L KC too, but have never found one. I would also add that I have always felt the badly flawed S&L's were of post war manufacture, and agree fully with Dietrich's article on the subject, not to mention that I have period, post war, signed and written proof (by the head of a war time manufacturer and post war supplier of 3rd Reich awards), of an original KC die being too badly damaged to be used any longer in their post war manufacture, and that newly made examples were being manufactured in order to continue to keep up with the demand for KC's (with four of the newly made copies being sent to the U.S. based dealer that the letter was addressed to, with that very shipment). This demand originated primarily from the U.S., England and France.

So, it has been my experience that no reproduction KC (that I have ever owned or seen) has had any frosting applied to it. Also worth noting is that none were ever properly finished, as only true Knights Crosses are.

In regard to the "Rounder", I have two. The second pictured 800 silver framed one, which is being used in this thread, as well as another recently acquired out of Berlin. The "Rounder" studied by Dietrich in this thread has "real" frosting created by the Weiss-Sieden process, which etches the silver. This also being the case with this second "Rounder" I now possess.

Also worth mentioning in regard to accepted original KC's. Neither my prior owned original Lazy 2 Juncker, nor my vet acquired Klein & Quenzer KC, had any frosting.

Regarding "painted" frosting. I have in my possession what I believe to be an early, unmarked, Waechtler & Lang EK-1 with such frosting. Both front and back have been sprayed with this "paint". It is quite obvious that this was sprayed on, and not hand applied, given the shadow of the catch and part of the hinge which were not coated, given the angle of the spray. This is quite evident on the piece, and in the pictures. This "paint" was then burnished from the flanges, as well as the inner portions of the arms of the cross. This left the painted frosting on the outer edge of the arms, and within the deepest portions of the V notch junctures of each arm (where the tool did not reach), as well as the file marks left by the hand finishing. The outer edges of this cross were then plated. This plating has never dulled, and is not lacqured over. The face of the pin is also burnished to a high sheen, while the underside of it is like the rest of the medals surface.

This painted frosting lies higher than it's burnished, and later plated edges, which supports Dietrich's research.

Okay, Dave. Point taken.

"Who has a nice 20X view of one of these?" That view would be interesting to see. Does anybody have a frosted Souval or Brit S&L they can contribute to this research project? (And now that I think about it, can anybody post a pic of a Brit-made S&L? I've never seen one.)

[vonStubben]

Back of cross showing the shadow of the sprayed on "frosting".

[George Stimson]

Thank you for the input, Charles!