29th Div. Italian SS insignia

[Dennis S]

Nick, The reason I am familiar with that specific round flecthing eagle is that in the late seventies or early eighties . I unfortunately knew the characters from Nj that reproduced tht eagle in both red and black. One collector/dealer loaned a good red one to another dealer and well those roundies were born. I actualy saw a paper shopping bag full under a table at a show in Lodi NJ.

As far a that black one depicted in the Hayes book with the square fletching I really don't know . It may have a chance because I have never seen others on the market and may be Italian produced cottage industry style such as was common during the RSI period. As with non typical RSI items made privately made you are always treading on thin ice.

Thanks for your opinion Dennis, if it is a repro, they did a pretty decent job, it even has the proper green backing and very good quality embroidery... I've always known that all the BeVo made red and black types and the embroidered versions green/red with the black highlights are no good, but my sleeve example sure looks "right"! I recall reading another post on this topic, and after finding and rereading it, I noticed that you were the author (posting it many years ago), explaining again about the rounded fletching issue on the wings (as opposed to being more pointed), but I've always theorized it was just a makers variation or something... Thanks for your input! Nick

PS: in Hayes and Maguire's book "Uniforms of the Third Reich" P.195 depicts a non standard Italian green wool 29th Div uniform with a black Italian sleeve eagle with square wing fletching and on p.202 a summer tan uniform with red insignia including a twin of my red arm eagle...thick with identical round wing fletching... so that must be a problem tunic based on your info... So both examples in this book appear without the pointed fletches...which per your theory being the acceptable style... Pictures to follow!

[NickG]

Thanks for the info Dennis...scary hobby! The eagles I was referring to (as depicted in the Hayes book), I am now hearing, are indeed from questionable tunics, per Francesco, who like yourself, also is very knowledgeable on this topic (he started this thread).
So maybe we should post those Hayes book pictures for educational sake! Italian SS regalia is indeed a mine field, as there was so much local cottage industry with non regulation pieces...as you pointed out... its hard to weed out the good from the questionable/bad pieces! Especially since even reference books have errors in them...!
Thanks for your input!
Nick
ps: Manions has an Italian made 29th Div uniform for sale in its Waffen SS section, opening bid $1000! Most likely garbage, but check it out!
http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx~...1~pic~20070520

[Dennis S]

Red Tabs # 7

Ready to hear from the Jury....

Txs,
Dave
dblmed

Dave, Fransesco is right about these red runic tabs. Unfortunately I think I have seen this style in construction before. Let me dig out my Italian SS Archive( mistakes) and see if they match up.
If you really like this Italian SS stuff you will likely punish yourself. Your choices of finding original items are limited to (1)several known original benchmarked items and the Dachau never worn examples . Then you come up with the(2) non typical or cottage Industry embroidered pieces which are again a mine field. In my collection I have items in both catagories. Some of these items I have had for over 25 years and still do not have any proof positive other then the good gut feeling of their originality .
I also have my(3) archive of mistakes or wishfull thinking items.

You will find that you will not find tons of help identifying these items due to the lack of understanding of the subject. Most SS collectors will scoff at anything that is not textbook or conform to typical German manufacturing processes. Your best help in this area is to study Italian manufacturing techniques of similar known original items, add this to your source.
Forget the big American Dealers, most don't have a clue. If they have a good item for sale it is usually by mistake. Only buy items in the first catagory from this source. Be wary of bargains from Italy . RSI and
Italian SS items are very much sought after and collected there and the days of any bargains or good deals from there seem long gone.
Remember with Dealers from everywhere when you shake hands don't forget to count your fingers.

[Nostradamus]

Dennis said almost everything I wanted to say and mean...I totally agree...
I add to this thread some pics from Hayes and Maguire's book "Uniforms of the Third Reich" (Schiffer books) that NickG sent to me.
IMO I wouldn't even consider to buy these tunics, which to me are, at least in the first case, pure fantasy...
Francesco

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[Dennis S]

Francesco, What is your opinion of the black eagle on the second tunic. I have never seen a known fake or original here such as that one.

[Nostradamus]

Mmmmm....deja-vu....I have to remember where and when, but I do not like it at all....too naif for my taste.... German (and also Italian SS) definetly had style and taste, that insignia doesn't even seem an eagle...
Francesco

[PANZERPIONIERE]

This is a great thread, please keep it going, I am always interested in researching obscure units.


Steve Looking for anything pertaing to Pi.Btl.16 or Pz.Pi.Btl.16

[dblmed]

Red 29th SS Collar Tabs

Thank you so very much Francesco and Dennis S (!)

I greatly appreciate your both taking the time to rended studied comments and suggestions

As a Collector, Yes, I find that I am an eternal Student as well. There is so much to learn and then to try to comprehend & incorporate this knowledge base into the 'Science' of our Hobby passion.

Without a Forum such as WAF, a collector would be LOST, and at the mercy of dealers who may well not know what they or selling (especially Italian SS Items).

Of Interest, on the H. Weitze Site, there is a Red Fasces SS Tab & Eagle Set. (I wonder if that one is an original as well.

I thank you,

Dave
dblmed

[Nostradamus]

Dave, we are all Students and that's the right attitude towards this field...
Since this thread is so interesting for everybody I'll show something special and never seen around...dedicated especially to Bob Hritz, Dennis S and NickG, and all the others obviously!
The hat of Waffen Generalmajor der SS und Ispekteur der Freiwillingen Werbung in Italien Dott. Piero Mannelli..., the only Italian SS general rank...
This hat is well known in Italy from 70's, but never clearly shown and jealously hidden...since I managed to buy it, and now I want to share it with you...
It's a feldmutze, I'd say bergmutze style in some way, destined to high officer ranks, since is made in "luxury" material, silver waffenfarbe, two front bottons with rear prongs, front "monkey-head" totenkopf in zamac and left-side eagle embroided in aluminium and silver on a silky wool.
I really hope you like it...
Francesco

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