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**Steve T** · 03-13-2011, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

The textile information here is very interesting. Steve T's last post should be the subject of much consideration. Likewise Michael introduction of pre- and post-III Reich production.

But something has me a bit confused. We speak of Deutsches Heimatwerk tapestries being created in weaving mills. Yet this appears contrary to the purpose or focus of the DHW. I offer this statement from the 1940 DHW catalog mentioned earlier in this titanic thread.

This is my attempt at translation. Forgive my ineptitude.

Rural Craft-Culture

The products of the Deutschen Heimatswerkes are made by peasant and farm handicraft. The sales of these products of rural handiwork brings peasants, small farmers, country-helpers the additional income necessary for the existence of the farmer and with it the possibility, to find a living in the countryside, and there, to remain. Their work, their adherence to Anthro-Cultural History (Ahnenerbe) of the race are the foundations of the rural community-culture in present and future.

This statement seems to contradict any idea of mass production, weaving mills and the like. What happened? Are the items mass produced or handiwerk?

Examing my Teppich that I bought back in 2006 out of Germany, I am struck by the crude quality of the weaving.

Obviously damaged by sunlight, the texture of the textile is rough; crude at times. Notice the weave and thread size in this photo showing the front (right) and reverse (left).

The base thread structure seems almost canvas quality. Hardly the product of a modern 1930s mill. Or am I expecting too much from the industrial revolution?

Joe in my opinion that's exactly how one of the styles of weave should look. I think it is fine quality weaving bearing in mind its a weaving of wool and cotton (sometimes linen). A finer more detailed product could have been easily made, in finer threads, for example in silk, cotton or linen but then the heavier more rustic quality is lost. The rustic style was clearly popular, just look at hand knotted fisherman carpets and wall hangings as an example.

There has been some talk over whether its a curtain or wall hanging in the past but thats not important. I'm sure you could have ordered curtains or a tapestry in the pattern.

The DHW catalogs answer your question from the pictures contained within, if a weaving mill is mass prduced product then yes. Many pictures of linen, curtains, tapestries and so forth are shown.

**Minnesinger** · 03-13-2011, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Is the second one a crop of this piece? It was sold in a New York shop more than a year ago if I remember correctly. Not one I think I'd like to own myself but I like the pattern.

Correct. It was a little red herring. The back has a little plastic piece with a sticker on. A dishonest person would simply rip it of and add a couple of years to its age in the ad if sold again. I love it and would have gone for it hook line and sinker without that knowledge.

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2011, 01:55 PM

Time for my beloved little red sweet pillow!

Attached Files

15. Januar 2011 025.jpg (148.6 KB, 287 views)

**JoeW** · 03-13-2011, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Joe in my opinion that's exactly how one of the styles of weave should look. I think it is fine quality weaving bearing in mind its a weaving of wool and cotton (sometimes linen). A finer more detailed product could have been easily made, in finer threads, for example in silk, cotton or linen but then the heavier more rustic quality is lost. The rustic style was clearly popular, just look at hand knotted fisherman carpets and wall hangings as an example.

There has been some talk over whether its a curtain or wall hanging in the past but thats not important. I'm sure you could have ordered curtains or a tapestry in the pattern.

The DHW catalogs answer your question from the pictures contained within, if a weaving mill is mass prduced product then yes. Many pictures of linen, curtains, tapestries and so forth are shown.

If the catalog answers the question, I guess the DHW was a fraud. Claiming cottage industry production and providing items of that style produced on modern equipment in cities is hardly an attempt to shore up the cottage industries. But would modern production standards like the 1960/70s photo above have produced the weave of my hanging?

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2011, 02:26 PM

Due to the given circumstances it was not a fraud at all - actually we do have seen that impressive DHW east-prussian farmers tapestry passing by for almost 2000 Euros and it was marked as a work created by one specific weaving girl in that area.

Weaving mills could have been run by one family - from 2-50 employees.

Of course they used modern equipment - why not?

**Steve T** · 03-13-2011, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

If the catalog answers the question, I guess the DHW was a fraud. Claiming cottage industry production and providing items of that style produced on modern equipment in cities is hardly an attempt to shore up the cottage industries. But would modern production standards like the 1960/70s photo above have produced the weave of my hanging?

Joe, the TR was a fraud

Actually I don't think its such the fraud you suggest. Those machines in the picture above are I'm sure more modern than the ones used in the 30's. I wouldn't look at that machine and assume its 1930's.

What is the same is the Jacquard technique, a fundamentally digital technique, even when it was invented, 1880 something(?) I'm sure someone will Google it. So its an easy process to upgrade machines and now its all done by computers by same technique. A major invention that easily transferred into the modern age!

**Steve T** · 03-13-2011, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post

Due to the given circumstances it was not a fraud at all - actually we do have seen that impressive DHW east-prussian farmers tapestry passing by for almost 2000 Euros and it was marked as a work created by one specific weaving girl in that area.

Weaving mills could have been run by one family - from 2-50 employees.

Of course they used modern equipment - why not?

Yes, that was a beauty and I had a bid on it, but some smart ass on here tells the world and the price sky rockets. Oh well

I have a picture of the same tapestry design being made in some of my research so it was particularly interesting.

**Steve T** · 03-13-2011, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Thorsten B. View Post

Time for my beloved little red sweet pillow!

Now that's funny

**Minnesinger** · 03-13-2011, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

If the catalog answers the question, I guess the DHW was a fraud. Claiming cottage industry production and providing items of that style produced on modern equipment in cities is hardly an attempt to shore up the cottage industries. But would modern production standards like the 1960/70s photo above have produced the weave of my hanging?

The thicker wallhangings were IMO all handgewebt and still are. Look at the photo I posted asking how many metres people wanted of it. The thinner are more likely to be machine made. I also believe it was primarily upholstery.

**Thorsten B.** · 03-13-2011, 03:11 PM

For making that judgement I would have liked to get my hands on that east-prussian example for comparison.

I can also imagine it depends from which weaving mill the pieces were delivered.

They obviously did not have all the same machines as well as patterns.

For example the example I recently shared here with the big tree of life, the double-headed eagle and the farmers and animals is thinner than the known tree of life-tapestries - although they are the same size, same construction with added suspension looms and same technique.

And both are wall tapestries and not upholstery.

**Minnesinger** · 03-13-2011, 03:19 PM

Got any photos saved of the ostpreußische one?

**Steve T** · 03-13-2011, 03:58 PM

The thicker wall hangings, like the Fisher hangings, are hand knotted, they are effectively hand knotted carpets. The tapestry like the Tree of Life, Pyramus and Thisbe and such like, meaning the wool and cotton double image style we have shown on the thread are Jacquard loom. The East Prussian farmer carpets, like 'The Clock Tapestry' are not Jacquard but hand worked on a loom.

The Jaquard type is I'm sure clear as we show many of them here, with the Fisher type you see the ends of the thread on the viewing side and the farmer carpets you see the loops of the thread on the viewing side.

Below is a 'Farmer' carpet / wall hanging from around 1790. TR pieces of this type were made in the same way.

Attached Files

farmer.jpg (150.9 KB, 294 views)

**Steve T** · 03-13-2011, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Minnesinger View Post

Got any photos saved of the ostpreußische one?

Yes I have, but there's a better one above, you can see detail.

**Minnesinger** · 03-13-2011, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Yes I have, but there's a better one above, you can see detail.

You know your knitting.

Thanks for clearing out the technical names. I had no idea what they were in English.

**Michael Fay** · 03-13-2011, 05:59 PM

clarification

Originally posted by Steve T View Post

Joe in my opinion that's exactly how one of the styles of weave should look. I think it is fine quality weaving bearing in mind its a weaving of wool and cotton (sometimes linen). A finer more detailed product could have been easily made, in finer threads, for example in silk, cotton or linen but then the heavier more rustic quality is lost. The rustic style was clearly popular, just look at hand knotted fisherman carpets and wall hangings as an example.

There has been some talk over whether its a curtain or wall hanging in the past but thats not important. I'm sure you could have ordered curtains or a tapestry in the pattern.

The DHW catalogs answer your question from the pictures contained within, if a weaving mill is mass prduced product then yes. Many pictures of linen, curtains, tapestries and so forth are shown.

Steve, are you talking about Joe's reddish teppich?
I think you are and say in your opinion it is a correct make for the TR era?. I just want to be clear here. You think it may have been a curtain? And you say it was discussed on WAF before... I dont remember that, but I may have missed it.
I like Joe's teppich .

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