A couple of Cultural items

[Capt. R]

The wood is so massive that on both sides it is easily possible for a good craftman to carve the Lebensrune symbol out of that thick material so to speak and that it still appears to be in proper shape.


That should tell you something.

If the carver was faking this don't you suppose he would have done some ss runes or a swas which would make the overall piece more marketable (more expensive) instead of only a largely unknown life rune??

What it tells me is that your personal relationship with Michael is causing you to bias your comments about his pieces. Would your comments be the same if someone else posted the photos or would you simply decline to comment? Make no mistake, your comments were designed and obviously intended to hurt his feelings. Questions to ask if we are to approach this in an unbiased manner.

[David Fettes]

What it tells me is that your personal relationship with Michael is causing you to bias your comments about his pieces. Would your comments be the same if someone else posted the photos or would you simply decline to comment? Make no mistake, your comments were designed and obviously intended to hurt his feelings. Questions to ask if we are to approach this in an unbiased manner.

Now I feel your just being daft, both myself and Steve T also have doubts to this piece. I do not have any personal relationship with Michael and thus my comments are without bias. As for any comments hurting his feelings, oh come on, how old is he? I am sure he wont be crying over it.

This candlestick seems (from the photographs provided) to be missing somewhat in symmetry, the back appears to have more wood then the front. Maybe it was made this way or maybe some extra carving has taken place on the front face (for example...to make a rune). This is the reason that I was asking for a pure side profile shot.



IMO a faker who makes his work over the top to be more marketable is a stupid faker. Clever fakers are subtle.



.

[Steve T]

I meant to add this photo with a comment in my above post but here it is now.

The picture shows the candle holder with rune together with another not uncommon design from the 60's which is retro art deco. (though losing most of the style of true period art deco!)

It's the similarity to reproduction art deco and the thoughts of a crafty crafter modifying a piece with not too much difficulty to produce a TR piece that also gives me concerns.

[Capt. R]

Now I feel your just being daft, both myself and Steve T also have doubts to this piece. I do not have any personal relationship with Michael and thus my comments are without bias. As for any comments hurting his feelings, oh come on, how old is he? I am sure he wont be crying over it.

This candlestick seems (from the photographs provided) to be missing somewhat in symmetry, the back appears to have more wood then the front. Maybe it was made this way or maybe some extra carving has taken place on the front face (for example...to make a rune). This is the reason that I was asking for a pure side profile shot.


IMO a faker who makes his work over the top to be more marketable is a stupid faker. Clever fakers are subtle.



.

Well, 2 people like it and 2 people don't so we are split evenly- excepting one biased opinion of course. When you have lost great sums of money to someone you once trusted, I can see how these words could be hurtful and annoying. If you cannot see the conflict of opinion here or if you fail to see the snide nature of the remarks in light of the recent events, then there is little I can do to explain it to you.
And maybe no crying per se but his wallet isn't laughing it off, I can assure you.

[Michael Fay]

Comparison Aesthetics

Wooden single candle holder.

that single candle holder of Thorstens is not to my liking (that is why I refused to buy it two different times a long time ago).
In fact it exemplifies the critique you shared already:
" its a simple design, there isn't much work involved and little skill required in producing it and yet the design and execution of the work leads me as a viewer with an awkward feeling towards it, an uncomfortable feeling, a lack of harmony and aesthetic in the shape as if the producer had no real eye for design."

Your words describe thorstens single candle holder perfectly,
just look at that shoddy carving of decorative leaves. Do you think the (I guess Astrorological )symbols look acceptable? No, they look clumsily done at best. And the shape is the opposite of pleasing, it has shoddy carving, and is as aesthetically displeasing as it is un-harmonius . It is as harmonious as a tipped over bowl of jello. It is extremly uncomfortable in feeling.
All that being said, I dont know what era it was made in, nor will I claim it is a fake via aesthetics.
After all, Aesthetics is entering the realm of the subjective and personal, it is entering the realm of personal taste, and not facts.

[Michael Fay]

these show my holder is as thick as the other one

I meant to add this photo with a comment in my above post but here it is now.

The picture shows the candle holder with rune together with another not uncommon design from the 60's which is retro art deco. (though losing most of the style of true period art deco!)

It's the similarity to reproduction art deco and the thoughts of a crafty crafter modifying a piece with not too much difficulty to produce a TR piece that also gives me concerns.

Steve,
This pairing of photos means that if my candle started life looking like that one (but with less arms) then there would not be enough room to carve out enough wood from existing shape to get a rune in raised relief like mine and not look obviously whittled down.
And mine has the thichness in similar with the the other candle holder yet also has a raised relief rune displayed on top of this thickness.
Also, there are many things made in the 60's that may harken back to another age's wood carving style...especially as intuitivly organic a shape as my Leben rune candle holder.

excellent photos by the way.
I like both of those candle holders.
Exactly where can I read about this 60's candle holder for myself?

[Michael Fay]

Thorsten agrees patina and wood grain are correct

Thank you for sharing these pics.

Nonetheless they are not convincing, at least not for me.

Why?

What we see is a thick wooden candleholder, definitely from the time around 1925 - 1955, yes, even after 1945 these pieces were made, especially in the so-called DDR in Thuringia for example.

The wood is so massive that on both sides it is easily possible for a good craftman to carve the Lebensrune symbol out of that thick material so to speak and that it still appears to be in proper shape.

If you like it - good for you.

I won´t - already the whole shape of the candleholder totally does not get in a harmonic way in common with the sharp masculine appearance of the Lebensrune itself.

That should tell you something.

Thorsten,
Your only reasons to claim my runic candle was a fake were : the patina is wrong, and the rune was affixed on by glue or somthing. And yet, you failed to defend these claims. You seem to have forgotten your own validation for your critique.
So you have completely backed off from this claim. In fact you are admitting these specific claims were incorrect on your part.
So, you are admitting you were wrong.
Your other new critiques actually make this piece even better. 1925-1955, indeed, I do believe the Third Reich prevailed within those periods of time.

Well, that is progress.But you still say it could have been reworked so much as to allow for a raised relief rune.
I disagree, there is little room for this. However, I take great comfort in your falling back into aesthetics for your possible proofs as this is simply your own personal taste and not in the realm of fact anymore.
After all your astrological candle holder is an ugly thing to behold ( by the way,do you still claim it is SS?).
Some of those metal candelabra you have been selling dont exactly impart harmonious feelings.
As for you not liking it, well that is even better, as your expertise if questionable at best.
Do you still sell fake Allach and claim it is good? I know you do. Many people talk to me about you now.

[Michael Fay]

Now I feel your just being daft, both myself and Steve T also have doubts to this piece. I do not have any personal relationship with Michael and thus my comments are without bias. As for any comments hurting his feelings, oh come on, how old is he? I am sure he wont be crying over it.

This candlestick seems (from the photographs provided) to be missing somewhat in symmetry, the back appears to have more wood then the front. Maybe it was made this way or maybe some extra carving has taken place on the front face (for example...to make a rune). This is the reason that I was asking for a pure side profile shot.



IMO a faker who makes his work over the top to be more marketable is a stupid faker. Clever fakers are subtle.



.

David,
I have seen much TR era handmade items that might not look asymetrical to you or I.
I dont find your critique of "lack of symetry" compelling as it is a handcarved wooden object, subject to the organic nature of the wood itself, the handcarver's own predilictions, and quirks and his vision for how the leben rune should relate to the rest of the piece in the carver's vision.
There was no standardized rules for such work, in fact I believe i have read here on WAF that allowances were to be made for such earthy gemutlichkeit type objects and for local and artistic variance as being admirable qualities going back to the Volks Ur-geschichte .

[Thorsten B.]

To the Capt.:

"When you have lost great sums of money to someone you once trusted"

Michael received ALL his money back and the last amount will definitely hit his account during coming week - so you are invited to stop your ranting.

To Michael:

A really good and authentic piece stands on it´s own - and not on your ranting which is clueless and not productive.

You do not share my opinion?

Well, you don´t have to and that´s it.

[Thorsten B.]

"Do you still sell fake Allach and claim it is good? I know you do. Many people talk to me about you now."


Michael: You really do know? Can you give any evidence to this?


Perhaps you might be the one being thrown out of this forum due to defamation and spreading lies about other members.

[Capt. R]

To the Capt.:

"When you have lost great sums of money to someone you once trusted"

Michael received ALL his money back and the last amount will definitely hit his account during coming week - so you are invited to stop your ranting.

Thorsten, you are talking nonsense. How can he have received ALL his money back if a payment is still pending and has not hit his account. WHEN or IF he receives it all back, HE will tell us, NOT YOU.

Your candleholder is not original, and is not aesthically pleasing. If you had something as nice as Michael's candleholder, you would be the 1st to sell it as original and to hype it on here. I can see right through you and I am not fooled. Others may be, but not me. Your attitude on the forum has improved since the old days - since you are almost expelled, you have gone out of your way to be nice to everyone. I am not fooled. You run scared and you KNOW it.

[Thorsten B.]

Jaja.

[Steve T]

After all, Aesthetics is entering the realm of the subjective and personal, it is entering the realm of personal taste, and not facts.

Actually I don't think there are any wooden candle holders contained within this thread that sit outside of this realm, a realm I would call the realm of opinion.

The realm of opinion is exactly where I would put all the wooden candle holders here. I have not seen a fact written in this thread with respect to any wooden candle holder. It is subjective, it is art, it is the zeitgeist, the craft and design and of course personal taste, all factors which must be weighed up in ones own mind when it comes to purchasing a candle holder like yours, Don's or Thorstens/Third Reich Arts examples.

[Steve T]

Ok, something different

[Thorsten B.]

"Your candleholder is not original, and is not aesthically pleasing. If you had something as nice as Michael's candleholder, you would be the 1st to sell it as original and to hype it on here."

Capt.R., does this perhaps match your excellent notion of taste?

Don´t worry, no need for a hype and...No, it´s not for sale.

:-)