The Floch interview regarding the Pink/Birch smocks

[NickG]

Buy the jacket.........join the gang.......
Or just snipe on the WAF.
The choice is yours.

I already have one in the works actually...
Wanna do a marshmellow roast someday in Hollywood? 2 will burn longer (for the smores)

[NZMark]

Be a man and buy the Pink on Estand.

...and again, another spam posting.
This was answered in another thread. Why pay that when they come up cheaper elsewhere? Duh....
It appears now that those who are entrenched and not open minded enough to even consider these smocks as being original are only protecting their egos. There certainly is no logical argument in any of the postings any more. One just keeps adding numbers to his posting record - (there doesn't seem any other reason in his method). Having decried these for so long, any step back into the world of 'perhaps?' just could not happen.
And that in itself is telling. When we get to the point in collecting (in a subject we probably all started with passion and interest and learning) when we stop learning and say, nope - I know it all, and I can't be told any different, then I think you've lost the reason you even started collecting and learning to begin with.
Mark
NZ

[nutmeg]

It was incredibly, incredibly , jaw droppingly , candid of Floch to admit he faked the medals (almost unheard of in this hobby) , something he could have easily denied . I believe what he says about the smocks .

Kudos to you Nutmeg and Dennis for actually doing and interview with him - a thing we have talked about for a long time.
What was interesting to hear is that Floch did not think they were fakes. IF he would have openly said that he believed them to be repros it would have been a strong indicator of that they can be written off as fakes by the openminded side of this debate. No one could hold him accountable for bringing them to the west some 40 years ago and selling them for what they were - fakes or not so Its not likely he would lie. I dont believe in that he is telling lies now. That doesnt add up.
What could be possible is that he got taken for a ride and that he didnt figured that out at the time being.

IMHO this story is another + for that there is a chance for them.
However we are still left with the fact that they are different... But we have come to know that by now... Oh man ....

What can be done now to come to some sort of further conclusion, is what Nutmeg did at the Minsk film studio, and try to research them for possible clues and so on but regarding Polski film. Anyone of our polish collectors who is up for a challenge?

And some of you guys, have a beer and relax .. You know who you are, no pun intended...

Cheers
//Felix

[NickG]

Floch gave an honest answer which puts a new light on the origin of these...
it is another step in resolving the mystery! Debunking fables!

Better than the bogus info that the pink smocks originated from Berman & Nathan, costumiers (film props studio) in London in '79 or '80 for movie work...
Just nonsense! They did have some but had nothing to do with creating these as repros for film work as some claimed...So much BS on the web...
Reminds me of the German Dunkelgelb (war time refurbished) helmets which were explained to be an Egyptian contract
that got cancelled in preference of Czech made Soviet helmets...another fable! (but lets not go there and deviate)

[foamspoon]

Floch gave an honest answer which puts a new light on the origin of these...
it is another step in resolving the mystery! Debunking fables!

Better than the bogus info that the pink smocks originated from Berman & Nathan, costumiers (film props studio) in London in '79 or '80 for movie work...
Just nonsense! They did have some but had nothing to do with creating these as repros for film work as some claimed...So much BS on the web...
Reminds me of the German Dunkelgelb (war time refurbished) helmets which were explained to be an Egyptian contract
that got cancelled in preference of Czech made Soviet helmets...another fable! (but lets not go there and deviate)

This is new to me, when did these come out as war time refurbished. Would like to see the link on this.

[NickG]

This is new to me, when did these come out as war time refurbished. Would like to see the link on this.

Same category as pink smocks...a mystery still...really no solid proof...
Why do these exist? Certainly not because of an Egyptian need....That was debunked! (time line issues)
Just another fable! I really don't want to deviate....sorry ! What I do know is that we still have a lot to learn and keep an open mind! That's all!

[Dietrich Maerz]

It was incredibly, incredibly , jaw droppingly , candid of Floch to admit he faked the medals (almost unheard of in this hobby) , something he could have easily denied . I believe what he says about the smocks .

I am very surprised to hear that since it is not true. Mr. Floch, who we interviewed several times during the time of our research for the book The Iron Cross 1. Class and we published all this several years ago, never faked anything personally. He started with finding left-overs and companies (or one company) who supplied him with EK1s and EK1s only. That was in the 1970s.
Nothing else than other companies did, mainly S&L and Souval. He had an instinct to find these huge left-overs and the bravery to bring them to market. That is what “badge guys” know, if they not fall for the wrong notion that everything fake is a Floch. It certainly is not!

[Sgt. Steiner]

I do not have a dog (or smock) in this fight but I find all of kammo man's replies and responses to be rude and poorly written. I guess if this "expert" had all the proof, he would have considerable standing in the collecting community and would not be engaging in baiting other collectors and generally being a negative influence. "A Prayer for Owen Meany".

[John T]

he is a shrewd one that he is

[nutmeg]

I am very surprised to hear that since it is not true. Mr. Floch, who we interviewed several times during the time of our research for the book The Iron Cross 1. Class and we published all this several years ago, never faked anything personally. He started with finding left-overs and companies (or one company) who supplied him with EK1s and EK1s only. That was in the 1970s.
Nothing else than other companies did, mainly S&L and Souval. He had an instinct to find these huge left-overs and the bravery to bring them to market. That is what “badge guys” know, if they not fall for the wrong notion that everything fake is a Floch. It certainly is not!

I think it's important to have all the information correct . So Floch had a company make more post war if I understand this correctly?

[Dietrich Maerz]

That is what I understood, the famous (how we call it) “Austrian Fake”. However, we do not know whether he knew that they were made especially for him or were still original parts. At that point in time (1970s) all EK1 looked the same to the collectors.
I also know of a lot of things he found all over the places and there was never any reason for him to lie to us. We werenever into cloth, buckles, ... we were only after the truth of the EK1s. As a side note, all what he told us checked out later forensically and historically (LDO and PKZ numbers, part mix, ...)

I don’t care about the smocks, wouldn’t know if one bites me in the rear, but I think and believe his story to be real.

[Ludwig vK]

I do not have a dog (or smock) in this fight but I find all of kammo man's replies and responses to be rude and poorly written. I guess if this "expert" had all the proof, he would have considerable standing in the collecting community and would not be engaging in baiting other collectors and generally being a negative influence. "A Prayer for Owen Meany".

Surely the onus cannot be on Owen to provide proof? He is not the one breeding new dogs. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, which is why this topic keeps resurfacing.

[NZMark]

I think if Owen actually posted sensible arguments he would be taken more seriously - but continually spamming threads where anyone dares contradict him seems to be a hobby horse of his - I believe that is what Sgt. Steiner is referring to.
Thanks Dietrich for your additional posts - illuminating.
Mark
NZ

[Max Wünsche]

Dr. pls use a Camera, Tom W. Video 2018 shows also footage of Christmas tree treasures again but this time with significant proof of it incl AH with Santa.

Wittmann and Kanzler showing an image of AH and Santa and suddenly the crappy tree ornaments are legit.... F**k me if these two just went through the floor of credibility with this latest SOS video, if that is even possible....pathetic if not somewhat amusing!


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[nutmeg]

Surely the onus cannot be on Owen to provide proof? He is not the one breeding new dogs. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, which is why this topic keeps resurfacing.

What is the extraordinary claim here? Guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty? Many have been told these were not right from the time of their discovery , but that was just based on collector rumor . Until recently no one had challenged that. No one has produced a single shred of hard evidence to prove they are postwar , nothing other then they are different from the standard item. IMO there is far more weight they are wartime . Regretfully, some may feel they have staked their expert reputations on these being bad and at this point will fight tooth and nail to the bitter end regardless of where the facts may lead. Sorry it is that way , but that's life.