The Floch interview regarding the Pink/Birch smocks

[NZMark]

Simple example of re-evaluating what we 'knew' - 3rd pattern tropical tunics ('m43') were never made or worn before 1943. I've proven beyond doubt they were manufactured and worn in North Africa by late 1942.
2nd pattern tropical tunics ('m42') were only manufactured from 1942 onwards. Not true - first field evaluated and manufactured at the end of 1941.
Until Patrick and I put it on this forum NO-ONE knew about tropical wachmantels.
Re-think with new information and evolve.
And if you can't look at these things from a technical perspective, view it from a monetary standpoint. In the mid-late 1970's Floch paid $10 each. How much to set up the rollers, the machinists, getting the colour right (look at the greens - 90th Light has already hammered that peg nicely), using three types of thread to sew them together, then instead of machine sewing the lacing eyelets (cheaper) 'he' had them hand sewn (say 300? smocks) - that's 6000 hand sewn eyelets....
THEN - he has them left to rot in bales to increase their value...
Yeah - Right.
Mark
NZ

[phild]

I bought mine in early October 1981 at a show in Gunzenhausen and have this logged in a record that maintained after every purchase. When I bought it a collector there told me that these had come in some months earlier from the east. Some like them some did not. Common sense tells anyone that given that timeframe these could not have been made later than 1980 and realistically the planing and set up would have had to started not later than late 70s.


I know very well the FJ items mentioned in the post above and I examined many of these around 1990. They were petty good, but fell short when compared to these smocks. By the way, no one told me that the FJ items were bad then but rather I figured it out on my own after a few hours of careful examination of the trousers.

What I would say to anyone on these smocks is this:

Look very carefully at every seam and compare to German made smock. There were no copies until recently that this right but these are exact in every way including selvage orientation at elbow. Many German ones are not this textbook in that respect, not kidding.

Also look and consider the hand stitched lace holes and then tell me this would have been done on hundreds of smocks made in 1979 and expect me not to laugh at you.

The age of the folds and high point wear (Collectors now called it settling) that I saw on my example in 1981 was not faked and had been there many years.

All the smart guys and their fan clubs keep harping on the differences, but the subtle exactness must also be recognized. I can put this point no better than that.

[NZMark]

Good to know, it wasn't all too clear to me.



Yes, you have mentioned that before.


Cheers

Then we understand each other.
Mark
NZ

[Fritz]

Then we understand each other.
Mark
NZ

We do.

And we don't.


Cheers

[NZMark]

Edited. Pointless.
Mark
NZ

[Fritz]

Well, you did say English isn't your first language.
Mark
NZ

Did I?

[Fritz]

Edited. Pointless.
Mark
NZ

Yes, indeed.

[nutmeg]

It's important to remember that in some of these threads some of the more insulting or combative posts by various parties have been deleted by the moderators (and rightly so) . So as far a personal behaviour goes it's not the whole picture.

Owen has done a great job posting pictures of his collection which are appreciated by all. However, at least in my opinion he has only proven they are different from standard smocks , which pretty much everyone agrees on. He has not proven they are post 1945.

As someone trying to learn the history of the pink smocks, I've enjoyed reading the arguments for/against; but to say Owen hasn't provided proof or evidence isn't true.

"I think if Owen actually posted sensible arguments he would be taken more seriously"

The types of statements may not be as "shrewd" as Owen's comments, but they are a personal attack, too. His recent threads on SS camo uniforms items alone negates statements and descriptions like the quoted. I certainly recall, in various threads, people calling him out and daring him to show his collection - which he did - in incredible detail & depth.

Also - Citing Owen Meany is interesting, if not ironic. In the book, John finally believes Owen and begs God to bring him back.

[Fritz]

He has not proven they are post 1945.

Not sure if I can make myself sound. Gonna give this a try though: you haven't proven they are of pre may 45 German manufacture.....?


Cheers

[nutmeg]

Not sure if I can make myself sound. Gonna give this a try though: you haven't proven they are of pre may 45 German manufacture.....?


Cheers

That's sort of where we are , no one can prove 100% they are pre 1945 but no one cannot prove they are post 1945 100%. What we are left with is the evidence of construction, markings , material, source , etc. IMO these lead to a pre 1945 dating.

[Fritz]

That's sort of where we are , no one can prove 100% they are pre 1945 but no one cannot prove they are post 1945 100%. What we are left with is the evidence of construction, markings , material, source , etc.these lead to a pre 1945 dating.

Respected but not accepted.


Cheers

[NZMark]

Did I?

Fritz - My sincere apologies if my comment was at all inaccurate.
"The types of statements may not be as "shrewd" as Owen's comments, but they are a personal attack, too". Paintbrush - that is not a personal attack in any way - it's an observation. And you have a very different understanding of the meaning of 'shrewd' than I do.
Getting back to what this thread is actually about....
Mark
NZ

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

what a scoop... One of the biggest crook (no matter if he didn't make himself the fakes, he distributed them - crooks are always "hidding" themselves with "nice stories") oh suprise is denying that they are fakes and provide a new story... ahah priceless and so predictable.

Floch seemed to forgot that the added fake stamps are from Minsk (as i previously said, probably added in the US after the first sales with them), and of course can't give any explaination for them (which could understandable if the stamps were added by some US dealers and not him) and now the source is a Polish film studio, from which it seemed that no one every saw the use of those dozen of pinkies in any movie (please remember that i checked the dozen of Soviet war movies from 1945 up to late 1970 - i never saw a German smock in them).

Now the pedigree is :
"secret Polish locally made SS smocks" (Lodz) >
unique design never found elsewhere >
saved from destruction by Polish movie studio >
Floch, the one and single source bought them for a penny >
sale to the US collectors (who will never smell a rat of the swindle) >
add-on of Minsk studio stamps for the more skeptic collectors >
BINGO $$$

Probabilities anyone ?

No one will be able to discuss the source as it will be difficult to find any factual proof of the story... In a criminal trial, always put the bad things on the dead people... No one will be able to prove anything.

It is quite ironic to think that Poland is well known today for the reproductions (and fakes) that are coming from there.

See You

Vince

[nutmeg]

Hi,

what a scoop... One of the biggest crook (no matter if he didn't make himself the fakes, he distributed them - crooks are always "hidding" themselves with "nice stories") oh suprise is denying that they are fakes and provide a new story... ahah priceless and so predictable.

Floch seemed to forgot that the added fake stamps are from Minsk (as i previously said, probably added in the US after the first sales with them), and of course can't give any explaination for them (which could understandable if the stamps were added by some US dealers and not him) and now the source is a Polish film studio, from which it seemed that no one every saw the use of those dozen of pinkies in any movie (please remember that i checked the dozen of Soviet war movies from 1945 up to late 1970 - i never saw a German smock in them).

Now the pedigree is :
"secret Polish locally made SS smocks" (Lodz) >
unique design never found elsewhere >
saved from destruction by Polish movie studio >
Floch, the one and single source bought them for a penny >
sale to the US collectors (who will never smell a rat of the swindle) >
add-on of Minsk studio stamps for the more skeptic collectors >
BINGO $$$

Probabilities anyone ?

No one will be able to discuss the source as it will be difficult to find any factual proof of the story... In a criminal trial, always put the bad things on the dead people... No one will be able to prove anything.

It is quite ironic to think that Poland is well known today for the reproductions (and fakes) that are coming from there.

See You

Vince

Hi Vince , you need to look at some of those films again. Kanal 1957 has very nice German SS smocks. Liberation 1963 has Heer camo smocks and some Leibermuster as well. There are others also but I'm not going to slog thru them all again, once was enough .

I would like your see your proof that Floch added the studio markings. That's a pretty strong statement so I assume you can back it up with facts.

[Fritz]

Fritz - My sincere apologies if my comment was at all inaccurate.

Ah! Just kidding. It wasn't. My German is even worse.

"The types of statements may not be as "shrewd" as Owen's comments, but they are a personal attack, too". Paintbrush - that is not a personal attack in any way - it's an observation. And you have a very different understanding of the meaning of 'shrewd' than I do.
Getting back to what this thread is actually about....
Mark
NZ

Did I mention "shrewd"?

Owen's from Ireland thus his English is horrible. As horrible as those smocks. Ok, perhaps not that horrible.


Cheers