The Floch interview regarding the Pink/Birch smocks

[nutmeg]

What if they are fakes for the collector market in the 80ties? Does they qualify then?

If that was the case why create a new pattern , if they made them in standard oakleaf they would be totally accepted today In addition the Soviet film company markings are a type not seen in the West until the fall of the wall (or maybe not even until just recently) To be aware of this type of marking you would have to penetrate the iron curtain before 1980s and get into the vaults at Mosfilm to see what the 1940s Soviet film property markings looked like. Unlikely senerio IMO.

[Fritz]

These are exact clones of standard SS smocks except for a few minor details like the color of the pocket hbt, thread , etc.

I am sorry but do you see what I see?

Cheers

[nutmeg]

I am sorry but do you see what I see?

Cheers

What do you see ?(the print pattern difference is assumed at this point)

[Willi Z.]

Let's recall some of the fakes which were released in great numbers during the 80s and 90s, and which are pretty darn close, but not exact, to originals. And thought to come from several nations in Central Europe.

I'll start:

- Luft long tropical trousers (the ones with mildew stains and markings in the wrong location)
- Kreta cuff titles
- M43 caps of every type
- FJ helmets
- Luft tropical tunics
- Luft tropical shirts

These are just the ones which come to mind, and in my collecting interests. All are very close to originals, but not exact. So, why on earth can we not accept the thought that SS pink smocks could have been made which are very close to originals?

[Fritz]

What do you see ?(the print pattern difference is assumed at this point)

I see a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as an "exact clone except for a few minor details".

Apart from that: I find those "few minor details" to be concerning.

Cheers

[nutmeg]

I see a contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as an "exact clone except for a few minor details".

Apart from that: I find those "few minor details" to be concerning.

Cheers

English was not my best subject in school.

It's pretty well established in posts going way here there are differences between the pink/birch smocks and the standard item. Variations exist in other German items as well.

[nutmeg]

These are just the ones which come to mind, and in my collecting interests. All are very close to originals, but not exact. So, why on earth can we not accept the thought that SS pink smocks could have been made which are very close to originals?

Some do accept that , I'm not one though.

[Fritz]

English was not my best subject in school. .

One thing we have in common.

Variations exist in other German items as well.

Yes. But those are accepted variations.


Cheers

[leigh]

Why doesn't somebody get one of the pink smocks carbon tested or whatever they call it

[Fritz]

Why doesn't somebody get one of the pink smocks carbon tested or whatever they call it

That method does not work as it is "precise" to +/- ca. 50 years.

[NickG]

Let's recall some of the fakes which were released in great numbers during the 80s and 90s, and which are pretty darn close, but not exact, to originals. And thought to come from several nations in Central Europe.

I'll start:

- Luft long tropical trousers (the ones with mildew stains and markings in the wrong location)
- Kreta cuff titles
- M43 caps of every type
- FJ helmets
- Luft tropical tunics
- Luft tropical shirts

These are just the ones which come to mind, and in my collecting interests. All are very close to originals, but not exact. So, why on earth can we not accept the thought that SS pink smocks could have been made which are very close to originals?

Yes lots of fakes started to appear in the mid 1980's sure... H&C French books have these listed items shown in some of their mannequin presentations no doubt!
This would be the premise if these were produced in the mid/late 1980's - 1990's as fakes and made to fool, albeit being not totally accurate.
These smocks were found in 1984 or earlier was Floch's recollection...(some in very bad condition...long term storage issues)

It was actually more like 1982-ish when these surfaced on the market if I remember correctly...and again the stamps (1947) and the film connections (studios defunct or renamed in the 1950's) would predate these by decades from any 1980's repros...
That is what makes these so interesting. Fake studio stamps (like Statni) is something that happened much much later after such property stamps (studio/museum) were understood, especially thanks to the internet. These intriguing smocks predate all of that in my view...It is just an opinion of course!

[nutmeg]

Yes. But those are accepted variations.

True, but accepted variations can also be unaccepted when new information is uncovered or the reverse.

[nutmeg]

These smocks were found in 1984 or earlier was Floch's recollection...(some in very bad condition...long term storage issues)

My friend talked with Floch earlier at the show but he was busy with customers and he said to come back later. At that time he said they were found in the late 1970s. When the interview was done later in the day , after thinking about it he said he thought it was 1984 so that's what we wrote down and reported.

[leigh]

That method does not work as it is "precise" to +/- ca. 50 years.

Thanks I didn't know that. I've learnt something from all this reading

[paintbrush]

As someone trying to learn the history of the pink smocks, I've enjoyed reading the arguments for/against; but to say Owen hasn't provided proof or evidence isn't true.

"I think if Owen actually posted sensible arguments he would be taken more seriously"

The types of statements may not be as "shrewd" as Owen's comments, but they are a personal attack, too. His recent threads on SS camo uniforms items alone negates statements and descriptions like the quoted. I certainly recall, in various threads, people calling him out and daring him to show his collection - which he did - in incredible detail & depth.

Also - Citing Owen Meany is interesting, if not ironic. In the book, John finally believes Owen and begs God to bring him back.