Maroon SS-Fez

[billbert]

Since Mike Beaver is dead now can we please leave him out of this??Billbert

[TONY Q.W.]

Since Mike Beaver is dead now can we please leave him out of this??Billbert

Billbert, all I'm trying is to protect his great work by some people (people like Dan) here.

[bwanek1]

Let's review, shall we?

There is substantial evidence in the form of eyewitness accounts that fezzes were among the clothing stores at Dachau. Even Dan has not claimed, within his supposed evidence, to possess or even have seen documents which could cause one to conclude otherwise.

In addition to what many of us have heard firsthand from veterans themselves (liars according to Dan?), here is an interesting account written by a U.S. Army Chaplain serving at Dachau after its liberation. In it, he describes the vast stores of SS uniforms and equipment. Though he does not address the quantities of individual items, he does relate a story of a former camp inmate who, given access to the stores, removed his prison uniform and dressed himself instead in an SS uniform topped with a fez (which I am guessing did not come from Texas):

http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__N...dminstrat.html

There can be no doubt that fezzes were stored at Dachau. All that can be rationally argued is the quantity.

This brings us to another element within the above-linked account, in which he describes that, at some point not long after liberation, "The material in the warehouses had to be inventoried and catalogued for future use, and guards placed to' safeguard it against further looting."

One would likely presume that, if fezzes were, in fact, there in substantial quantities (as all other accounts seem to indicate), not all of the fezzes would have been removed prior to procedures being implemented to control the looting and a thorough inentory having been conducted. If, by chance, this inventory is among the surviving documents, that would be the best piece of conclusive evidence regarding the quantity which was once there.

I wonder if Dan happened to stumble across that one in his extensive research. I guess we will never know, because it sounds like Dan has taken his ball and gone home.

Brad

[B. N. Singer]

... here is an interesting account written by a U.S. Army Chaplain serving at Dachau after its liberation.
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__N...dminstrat.html


Brad

That must really have been something to witness!! Brad, great reading, thank you.

B. N. Singer

[Jody]

Dachau

Hello,
This is silly arguing with him, I have known several veterans who brought fezzes, SS M-43 caps, and SS cloth insignia out of Dachau. My grandmother's 2nd cousin Lawrence Jones is one such individual.

He is just wanting to stir the pot and caste doubt into the minds of inexperienced collectors who own them.

BTW, I have no problem with the totenkopf on the fez in question.

Regards,
Jody

[TONY Q.W.]

I wonder if Dan happened to stumble across that one in his extensive research. I guess we will never know, because it sounds like Dan has taken his ball and gone home.

Brad

...nop, he's probably not. Brad, don't forget than Dan is the only one in the forum that he is claiming that a) the skull on Ben's fez is a fake and b)
that there were no bring backs (fezzes) from Dachau. Go figure...

[C. Betz]

Research

Brad,
Excellent bit of research. Thank you.

Charles Betz

[TONY Q.W.]

He is just wanting to stir the pot and caste doubt into the minds of inexperienced collectors who own them.

Regards,
Jody

Hi Jody,

I believe that your statement holds lots of truth.

[LUCKYFEZ]

Since it is obvious that some here are learning impared, I have assembled various quotes from the threads I have posted here, to illustrate the skewed, and misrepresented position I maintain:

Dan wrote the following:

1. "Not one piece of documentation from Dachau, Brinnlitz, nor the companies involved in the manufacture can confirm these shippments for "storage"

2. "I am not here to prove to anyone that fezzes were or were not in Dachau. There could have been 300 boxes, or none. I am saying, quite clearly infact, that there is no recorded evidence of the mysterious Dachau stash of fezzes, and there is over whelming records from the very manufactuers of these very items stating what unit types/ bundles, how many untis, and of what type went where for issue to the Handschar & Kama Divisions."

3. "The information is housed in various Holocaust Museums, and the National Archives of the U.S. among other places. All one has to do is apply for research credentials through the Museum of Tollerance in Washington D.C.. Go to the Museum, and use thier inventory. The information is already catalogued, and broken into sections. It is easy to find records on Dachau and other camps. "


bwanek1 wrote:

There is substantial evidence in the form of eyewitness accounts that fezzes were among the clothing stores at Dachau. Even Dan has not claimed, within his supposed evidence, to possess or even have seen documents which could cause one to conclude otherwise.

True, nor have I claimed there were not any fezzes. See above quote #1-2



There can be no doubt that fezzes were stored at Dachau. All that can be rationally argued is the quantity.

Agreed 100% See quote #2, and re-read the post where I talked about the "endless supply of Dachau material"



This brings us to another element within the above-linked account, in which he describes that, at some point not long after liberation, "The material in the warehouses had to be inventoried and catalogued for future use, and guards placed to' safeguard it against further looting."

I believe I had already made this statement, but since someone else be sides me said it, well then it must be true now. Thank you for proving my point in reagrds to inventories being tracked.



One would likely presume that, if fezzes were, in fact, there in substantial quantities (as all other accounts seem to indicate), not all of the fezzes would have been removed prior to procedures being implemented to control the looting and a thorough inentory having been conducted.

Which it was. Again re-read all posts from the beginning



If, by chance, this inventory is among the surviving documents, that would be the best piece of conclusive evidence regarding the quantity which was once there.

It is among the papers, all 4 units. No the documents are not conclusive. The inventory does not list individual headgear pieces as M43 feild cap etc. It states X number of "field hats", X # of field blouses/ trousers, X # of grey wool rolls (used/unused) etc etc. Nothing detailing collar tabs from the 29th whatever, or SS embroidered grey runned etc etc



I wonder if Dan happened to stumble across that one in his extensive research.

Long before you knew where to look.



Tony Q wrote:

...nop, he's probably not. Brad, don't forget than Dan is the only one in the forum that he is claiming that a) the skull on Ben's fez is a fake and b)
that there were no bring backs (fezzes) from Dachau. Go figure...

Correct on illustration "A", but again making more assumptions, or simply you can't read. See quote #2 above. For additonal referance on my opinion of the Dachau bring backs, please see other posts I have commented on, using my "profile", and clicking on "find all posts". I particularly like the comment about with all the "vet bring backs" it would be safe to assume there was a 4th Reich during WWII



Jody wrote:

He is just wanting to stir the pot and caste doubt into the minds of inexperienced collectors who own them

What for? So I can feel like the big man on campus because I put doubt into Jody "from the Grand Canyon State's" head that his fez may not be real? You nailed it though, "inexperienced" that indeed is the key word in this discussion. Thanks

Dan

[TONY Q.W.]

Since it is obvious that some here are learning impared,
Dan

I wonder who is the learning impaired here....

No ice cream for you today.

[BenVK]

I'm confused.(not for the first time!)
Regardless of whether there were any fezzes stored at Dachau (I'm not getting into that arguement, I simply don't have proof either way) Why would a very large quantity of original fezzes appear on the market (at a time when their individual value was not that great at all) with replaced skulls only? Why not the eagle as well? It's nearly impossible to match up two pieces of insignia in terms of wear and toning etc so why not strip it completely and add two repro badges?
It doesn't make any sense because even now, fezzes are stripped of their insignia for a more "sexy" piece of headgear and the fez itself discarded or sold for a few quid. Why would anyone go the trouble of changing the skulls on a whole batch of fezzes at a time when the individual value of one was a fraction of what their worth now?
My other question is this. Let's say for arguement's sake that this did happen and a large quantity had their original skulls removed and this variation put on. This type of skull is narrower across it's width than any other variation that I know of. It's also a bit smaller than most as well. How on earth did whoever it was manage to stitch them on so accuratley through the original stitching holes as not to leave any evidence of tampering on a single one? Indeed, so amazingly good was the handywork, no one has spotted this before, even though bogus stitching of insignia on M43's, Bergmutzen, sidecaps etc etc have all been caught at some time or other.
I'll have some more question soon, need a drink first though.
Cheers
Ben

[TONY Q.W.]

Dan, nothing personal (yeah, right) but I do beleive you have the "I'm the best in the world syndrom". I don't think that this counts much in here.

[bwanek1]

LUCKYFEZ: “meticulos [sic] records were kept by the Germans before the liberation and the US Army after. Each match [sic] the other.”

<O</OReally? So the German inventories exist? You must have seen them to know that they “match” the American records. Certainly the Germans did not simply lump all field caps under one inventory line item like you say the Americans did. I am certain that the Germans distinguished between a fez and an M-43 on their inventory (otherwise a shipment of fezzes could go out to some non-Muslim division). So, tell us, what was the quantity of fezzes listed in this German inventory you matched so carefully to the post-liberation American inventory?

<O</OLUCKYFEZ: “There could have been 300 boxes, or none. I am saying, quite clearly infact [sic], that there is no recorded evidence of the mysterious <ST1<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Dachau</st1:City> stash of fezzes…”

<O</O…other than the numerous eyewitness accounts.

<O</OLUCKYFEZ: “…and there is [sic] over whelming records from the very manufactuers [sic] of these very items stating what unit types/ bundles, how many untis [sic], and of what type went where for issue to the Handschar & Kama Divisions.”

<O</OThis is the basic failure of your argument (the deductive reasoning flaw to which I continue to refer). You [claim to] have seen documents which prove the manufacture of fezzes at two manufacturing facilities. You somehow conclude from this that no other manufacturers were ever contracted to produce fezzes. That is not a logical conclusion. In fact, it is quite likely that other manufacturers were engaged to do precisely that. You simply have seen no records referring to them.

<O</OWe also know that Himmler and other senior SS planners had unrealistic expectations for the number of foreign volunteers which would be enlisted into the Waffen SS. The large number of unissued late-war collar tabs for foreign divisions (many of which were of styles never issued to anyone) attest to the fact that the SS was stockpiling uniforms and insignia in expectation of this huge increase in foreign volunteers which never materialized. Just like the other field caps and foreign volunteer tabs which are so easily identified as having come from Dacahu due to their unique style and lesser late-war quality, it stands to reason that the SS would have contracted for similarly lower quality stocks of fezzes to outfit the huge numbers of Muslim volunteers whom they expected along with the other foreign volunteers, but who never materialized.

<O</OWhat you know based on your research is only with regard to those early manufacturers whose documents you have seen: what they produced and to whom they delivered. You do not know, nor can you conclude logically, anything else with regard to what other manufacturers may have made or to whom they shipped and in what quantities.

<O</ONearly all eyewitness accounts from US vets have described huge stocks of SS fezzes at <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace Dachau</ST1</st1:City>. The documents you describe would lead one to conclude that these did not come from those manufacturers, not that they did not exist at all.<O</O

[LUCKYFEZ]

Dan, nothing personal (yeah, right) but I do beleive you have the "I'm the best in the world syndrom". I don't think that this counts much in here.

If that's what you have taken from this, no words in the English langauge will show you otherwise.



BenVK wrote:

Regardless of whether there were any fezzes stored at Dachau (I'm not getting into that arguement, I simply don't have proof either way)

I wish I had never said anything either. I understand this statement well.



Why would a very large quantity of original fezzes appear on the market (at a time when their individual value was not that great at all) with replaced skulls only? Why not the eagle as well?

The fez and its value on the market as a whole had nothing to do with why only a TK was removed. The value of the fez is exactly why this idiot in Texas was using them for the parts he needed at that time. He was not the least bit interested in fezzes.



It's nearly impossible to match up two pieces of insignia in terms of wear and toning etc so why not strip it completely and add two repro badges?

Finally back to the original topic! This is the problem I have with your TK. The wear (according to the photos) is not consistent with the hat in general or the eagle. It is not impossible to match sewing skills. Anyone who has had professional experience in restoration knows that matching stich holes, and pattern is simple when you take the time.



It doesn't make any sense because even now, fezzes are stripped of their insignia for a more "sexy" piece of headgear and the fez itself discarded or sold for a few quid. Why would anyone go the trouble of changing the skulls on a whole batch of fezzes at a time when the individual value of one was a fraction of what their worth now?

Quite simply because the fezzes were being used for parts, thus giving way for this person to make the real money on the "sexier" pieces of headgear. Aparently all he needed were the TK's, and not the eagles. When he took what he needed, he slapped a fake TK on the fez, and sold it too.



Let's say for arguement's sake that this did happen and a large quantity had their original skulls removed and this variation put on. This type of skull is narrower across it's width than any other variation that I know of. It's also a bit smaller than most as well.

Most will chalk this up to "variations." I call it fake.



How on earth did whoever it was manage to stitch them on so accuratley through the original stitching holes as not to leave any evidence of tampering on a single one? Indeed, so amazingly good was the handywork, no one has spotted this before, even though bogus stitching of insignia on M43's, Bergmutzen, sidecaps etc etc have all been caught at some time or other.

The mans wife is a professional seamstress. She makes custom wardrobe for Las Colinas Studios in Texas. She also consulted on the movie Schindlers List. this should show her level of skill. Also many people, including myself, have spotted is work. This persons work is nothing new. This guy was the #1 forgerer of uniforms a decade ago.



I'll have some more question soon, need a drink first though.

I'll join you. First round is on me. Cheers!


Dan

[LUCKYFEZ]

LUCKYFEZ: “meticulos [sic] records were kept by the Germans before the liberation and the US Army after. Each match [sic] the other.”

<O</OReally? So the German inventories exist? You must have seen them to know that they “match” the American records. Certainly the Germans did not simply lump all field caps under one inventory line item like you say the Americans did. I am certain that the Germans distinguished between a fez and an M-43 on their inventory (otherwise a shipment of fezzes could go out to some non-Muslim division). So, tell us, what was the quantity of fezzes listed in this German inventory you matched so carefully to the post-liberation American inventory?

<O</OLUCKYFEZ: “There could have been 300 boxes, or none. I am saying, quite clearly infact [sic], that there is no recorded evidence of the mysterious <ST1<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Dachau</st1:City> stash of fezzes…”

<O</O…other than the numerous eyewitness accounts.

<O</OLUCKYFEZ: “…and there is [sic] over whelming records from the very manufactuers [sic] of these very items stating what unit types/ bundles, how many untis [sic], and of what type went where for issue to the Handschar & Kama Divisions.”

<O</OThis is the basic failure of your argument (the deductive reasoning flaw to which I continue to refer). You [claim to] have seen documents which prove the manufacture of fezzes at two manufacturing facilities. You somehow conclude from this that no other manufacturers were ever contracted to produce fezzes. That is not a logical conclusion. In fact, it is quite likely that other manufacturers were engaged to do precisely that. You simply have seen no records referring to them.

<O</OWe also know that Himmler and other senior SS planners had unrealistic expectations for the number of foreign volunteers which would be enlisted into the Waffen SS. The large number of unissued late-war collar tabs for foreign divisions (many of which were of styles never issued to anyone) attest to the fact that the SS was stockpiling uniforms and insignia in expectation of this huge increase in foreign volunteers which never materialized. Just like the other field caps and foreign volunteer tabs which are so easily identified as having come from Dacahu due to their unique style and lesser late-war quality, it stands to reason that the SS would have contracted for similarly lower quality stocks of fezzes to outfit the huge numbers of Muslim volunteers whom they expected along with the other foreign volunteers, but who never materialized.

<O</OWhat you know based on your research is only with regard to those early manufacturers whose documents you have seen: what they produced and to whom they delivered. You do not know, nor can you conclude logically, anything else with regard to what other manufacturers may have made or to whom they shipped and in what quantities.

<O</ONearly all eyewitness accounts from US vets have described huge stocks of SS fezzes at <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace Dachau</ST1</st1:City>. The documents you describe would lead one to conclude that these did not come from those manufacturers, not that they did not exist at all.<O</O

Copying my style now, are we. How long have you really been in this hobby? I am not trying to offend you, I am really interested. Your entire post is made up of inuendo, leading statements, and assumptions of facts and thoughts to people of which (including myself) you have never met, nor could possibly have ever known. Stock piling uniforms at the end of the war, when shortages of material were at thier greatest........LOL! Times so bad that tatered uniforms were being mismatched, and poorly patched up, then reissued to troops still fighting the war? You said I looked at "early war documents" how do you know? More than two companies made the fezzes....really...who? Your ramblings of what Himmlers intentions were is astounding at the very least. Did you read that in a book some where? I just relized that I am debating a topic with a person who does not have any idea what war on thelosing team, must really be like, let alone what catagories are listed on either German, and or American documents. Did you fail to read again, about the UNFINISHED uniforms, and UNUSED rolls of cloth listed on part of the inventory of Dachau from my earlier thread? A person who does not have the foresight to take the initiative to get the info himself, rather relys on the scraps of info handed down from others. The contention that because inventory catagories may be different between German, and American documents, some how changes or negates the inventory is absured. Your regurgitation of some historical views is embarrasing at the least. This is how you base a collection? On assumptions, and incomplete evidence. LOL! Its been great amigo, thanks for the laugh. By the way, correcting grammer does not suuport (sic) your position, it looks like a desperate attempt to disprove what I have said by shifting the focus off topic. LOL! Regardless of our dualing, I do like you. You've got moxy. I have enjoyed this, thanks.

Dan