Maroon SS-Fez

[LUCKYFEZ]

Billbert,

I understand your point, however documents do not lie. I am not trying to act like I have the secret SS files. The records I used over the last 13 years are available to anyone with research credentials. They are not secretive by any means. As for what soldiers did or did not do, well I can not answer that with absolute fact, and I am sure niether can anyone else here. So we are back to the fundemental questions, and issues. I have made my case by listing the sources I used to validate my position. Other members have not pointed to one concrete undisputed source. Its all "feel", and 2nd hand information at best. I asked any member here on a different thread to show proof of one, and only one soldier who had taken a fez from Dacahu. I asked that the claim be backed by something other than the soldiers words. Guess what no one here could

Ben, sorry I no longer have the examples you are seeking. I cleaned out my files years ago, when the search for my fez ended. If I see any examples, I will certainly either contact you, or post them here. No problem there.

Anyone can believe what they want, but facts are facts. Facts don't change, and they are not open to interpretation.

Dan

[TONY Q.W.]

Billbert,

The records I used over the last 13 years are available to anyone with research credentials.
Dan

....and who told you that those records were original? Maybe you waisted 13 years reading false info.

[LUCKYFEZ]

Your reaching.

[TONY Q.W.]

Your reaching.

...in English?

[C. Betz]

Soldier's Words???

LUCKYFEZ,
Can you please specify what you mean by proof other than the soldiers' words of them taking a fez from Dachau? Do you mean an affidavit? I really think that it would be a bit absurd to go around to any veteran who had acquired a fez or any other item from Dachau and ask them for one. If indeed you can find any since so many of these men are dead.

In my own case, in the early 80s, I inventoried a collection of WWII militaria belonging to one Al Serafin, who was assigned to the CID. His entire collection of unissued SS insignia, some of which was recently sold on the estand, came from the Dachau warehouses and included not only a maroon fez but the feld-grau one as well. His description of GIs liberating the warehouses complements the other "stories" as you have referred to them. Though Al is gone from us now, I have never had the need to doubt anything he ever said. Moreover, you have yet to post any pictures or documents of your so-called discoveries, yet you ask others to do the same. It's time to call your hand. Lay your cards on the table.

Charles Betz

[LUCKYFEZ]

Charles,

What hand are you refering too? I did not claim to have any examples from the indivudaul in Texas. As a matter of fact, I specificly state that I no longer have those records. Once I obtained my fez, the search for the "perfect 100% original" fez was over so to speak. If you are implying copies of what amounts to hundreds of documents from the various research centers, well that is not realistic. Research centers seldom allow copies. Materials are used while present, then placed back when that days research is completed. If you want them, apply for research credentials. Once you have the credentials, you will get access to all the research centers. You can even request an assitant courtesy of the centers. Again no secret vaults, just a huge library full of orignal, and copied documents.

In regards to proof other than a soldiers word. Yes something such as photographic documentation of the sotrage facilities showing the items described. Copies of orders, or the serivce record book of a soldier who was proven to be there. I served in the USMC, and can tell you, every duty station, every temporary assignment, evey where you were located in any offical capasity is recorded. I have seen dozens of offical orders from soldiers who were there when the camp was first liberated, and 7 of the 9 interviewed agreed (independantly) that the Dachau inventory is far exaggerated. I have seen the US Army photos of the storage areas, and they are far from "cleaned out." Documents from Dachau in possesion of the Dallas Holocaust Museum, PRIOR to the liberation clearly detail the inventory in all 4 storage facilities. It breaks down collar tabs (not unit type but amount), etc etc. Yet no fezzes nor headgear were recorded. Loose yards of fabric, pins etc were recorded, yet they forgot to add headgear, or completed tunics. Please.

Bottom line ALL official reports confrim the Dachau looting as being minor, and meticulos records were kept by the Germans before the liberation and the US Army after. Each match the other. If you want to believe the soldier stories, by all means go right ahead. I would caution however that if you have to convince yourself about the story, or rely on"variations" to justifye the piece, the more BS the piece is. "Don't buy the story, buy the piece." Well if your going to buy anything, esp in this hobby, it better have the provenance (which is the story) to balance the piece too. Its a two way street. With the advent of technology, and the resources available to hucksters, bet the piece itself can fool you very easily. The same books we use to learn, the fraudsters use to fool. therfore you better have more than your gut, and a story. You better have DOCUMENTED sources that can be verified.

Dan

[John T]

Dan...I do have documented sources tracing fezes directly back to Dachau ("a room full to the ceiling") and I have a photo of a vet's son holding some of the haul of Dachau items with the collector...as I do not have permision of the vet's son or collector to post the picture I will not do so...but documented evidence does exist.

Just because there are no pictures of Dachau storage facilities on the forum does not mean that these pictures do not exist.

John

[John T]

...and there were at least two rounds of removal of souveniers from Dachau...one right after liberation by the GI's and one well into the 1950's.

[LUCKYFEZ]

"Dan...I do have documented sources tracing fezes directly back to Dachau ("a room full to the ceiling") and I have a photo of a vet's son holding some of the haul of Dachau items with the collector...as I do not have permision of the vet's son or collector to post the picture I will not do so...but documented evidence does exist.

Just because there are no pictures of Dachau storage facilities on the forum does not mean that these pictures do not exist.

John"


Ok, be more specific about the "evidence" you have. A photo of some son of the soldier "who was there" is not proof of anything. Documented means, something from an OFFICIAL source, not an notorized letter from the soldier, not some photo of the son of a soldier holding something in the 1950's. This again is not proof. I know two people that have had a fezzes since 1951 niether of them were at Dachau. That is not proof. As for your assertion that more "looting" took place in the 1950's is absured. Official records clearly state (with complete inventories/ weight etc) that in December of 1947 the US Army completely removed the contents of Dachau storage units 1-4, and placed the contents into lock-up in Italy. Furthur John, I do not think you read my postings clearly. There are dozens of photos of the "full" Dachau storage areas. these photos were taken by General Staff Photographer SGT Thomas Arnold 1945 less than 2 hours after liberation had taken place. Due to the low morales of some troops, the US Army was quick to secure all areas to prevent "evidence" and looters from leaving the areas.

I am not here to prove to anyone that fezzes were or were not in Dachau. There could have been 300 boxes, or none. I am saying, quite clearly infact, that there is no recorded evidence of the mysterious Dachau stash of fezzes, and there is over whelming records from the very manufactuers of these very items stating what unit types/ bundles, how many untis, and of what type went where for issue to the Handschar & Kama Divisions. "Fezzes up to the ceiling". Well a single file line in a 2 ft box dosen't count. Either way, this has morphed into something other than the intent of the thread. My position is clear. I am not wasting anymore time on the subject. if you are happy with what you have, then cheers to you! No big deal really. This thread is interesting. I like opinions, I am here to learn, and I am open minded when faced with credible evidence. I think everyone has something of value to add to the subject.

dan

[C. Betz]

Proof

LUCKYFEZ,
Well proof is required indeed.
(1) Let's start by you releasing the name of this manufacturer of bogus insignia in the great state of Texas. A quick check of the internet should give us reasonable assurance that this individual was brought to justice if his operation is/was a big as you claimed.

(2) How about the names and units of the veterans that you interviewed for your research? I spent four years in the Air Force and am very well versed in all types of records.

(3) How about posting your real name to ascertain your bona fides.

Charles Betz

[bwanek1]

Either this guy is really a complete nut job or he is someone jerking everyone's chain with these absurd arguments just to watch people get spun up. Either way, why are we arguing with him?

[Bob Coleman]

[quote=LUCKYFEZ;1649728]Billbert,

I understand your point, however documents do not lie. I am not trying to act like I have the secret SS files. The records I used over the last 13 years are available to anyone with research credentials. They are not secretive by any means. As for what soldiers did or did not do, well I can not answer that with absolute fact, and I am sure niether can anyone else here. So we are back to the fundemental questions, and issues. I have made my case by listing the sources I used to validate my position. Other members have not pointed to one concrete undisputed source. Its all "feel", and 2nd hand information at best. I asked any member here on a different thread to show proof of one, and only one soldier who had taken a fez from Dacahu. I asked that the claim be backed by something other than the soldiers words. Guess what no one here could

Dan-
With all due respect, you do not have any idea what you are talking about. I have bought numerous fezes from veterans dating back to the early 60's. Frankly, those who were there are a far better reference than any thing you have alleged to have read. Today, most of those who were there are now deceased.
Secondly, Dachau was a huge complex with buildings over a wide spread area. The storage facilities are removed from the camp itself. Soldiers toured Dachau for months after the surrender and continued to take insignia and yes, fezes long after the surrender. Yes, facts are facts. You have yet to produce any reasonable or knowledgable position.
Bob

[RD Rygaard]

Dan...I do have documented sources tracing fezes directly back to Dachau ("a room full to the ceiling") and I have a photo of a vet's son holding some of the haul of Dachau items with the collector...as I do not have permision of the vet's son or collector to post the picture I will not do so...but documented evidence does exist.

Just because there are no pictures of Dachau storage facilities on the forum does not mean that these pictures do not exist.

John

John cant you just photoshop out the faces? Id love to see the pics!!!!!!!!

[Daniele C]

that fez is 100% original and that variation is one of those i ve seen lots on period pics on M43 feldmutzes!i i find a period pic i ll try to show you

[billbert]

Amen..Billbert