Maroon SS-Fez

[TONY Q.W.]

Copying my style now, are we. How long have you really been in this hobby? Your entire post is made up of inuendo, leading statements, and assumptions of facts and thoughts to people of which (including myself) you have never met, nor could possibly have ever known. Stock piling uniforms at the end of the war, when shortages of material were at thier greatest........LOL! You said I looked at "early war documents" how do you know? More than two companies made the fezzes....really...who? Your ramblings of what Himmlers intentions were is astounding at the very least. Did you read that in a book some where? I just relized that I am debating a topic with a person who does not have any idea what catagories are listed on either German, and or American documents. Let alone a person who does not have the foresight to take the initiative to get the info himself. The contention that because inventory catagories may be different between German, and American documents, some how changes or negates the inventory is absured. Your regurgitation of some historical views is embarrasing at the least. This is how you base a collection? On assumptions, and incomplete evidence. LOL! Its been great amigo, thanks for the laugh. By the way, correcting grammer does not suuport (sic) your position, it looks like a desperate attempt to disprove what I have said. LOL!

Dan

OUHHH such testosterone, careful you may break a finger on the keyboard

Dan is the best he won again

[BenVK]

Right, I've opened the wine, let battle comence!

Dan, you've have some inconsistencies in your statements.
You say that this rogue took the TK's off and slapped repro ones on, yet you also addmitt that the work was done by a proffesional hand and to high degree of skill. This is hardly slapping them on.

Next, you say that this idiot was not interested in fezzes, yet he went to the effort of replacing the skulls, why?

You say that the skull on my fez (now sold) is not consistent with the eagle or the hat. That's truly a remarkable eye you have my friend to be able to judge that from the photos. I had it in my hands and can say without a doubt that I've never seen two pieces of insignia on the same garment that looked so consistent in every way!

The guy was the no 1 forger a decade ago you say, yet the guy I bought my fez from got it from his father and claimed it had been in his family since the war's end. This is debatable of course but I still doubt very much that he got it from the grassy knowl in Texas 10 years ago and bought it back to London only to sell it to me for next to nothing because he had no idea what it was in the first instance or it's value. Most tourists bring back a Stetson!

I said that this skull is narrower than any other variation I know of. You call it a fake. Nobody I've ever meet in the collecting world apart from you believes that's true. Any evidence of that? Repro hats made by Lost Battalions with skull? Website of the Pakastani company knocking them out? Anyway, lets call it a fake for now. There is no way in hell anyone can match up the same sticthing holes when appliing this skull over the holes of another differently dimensioned "original" skull. Sorry Dan, I know a bit about restoring cloth and insigina, I don't care where she worked, unless she had a "blank" fez to work on, it ain't going to happen.

Another drink mate? I'll have to open the Jamesons in a minute!

[Matthew T S]

I believe the TK on the fez at the start of this thread is good.

For someone to butcher a fez, then take so much time to do delicate work for a fake and then flood the market really takes a lot of... dedication.

[TONY Q.W.]

Tony Q wrote:

...nop, he's probably not. Brad, don't forget than Dan is the only one in the forum that he is claiming that a) the skull on Ben's fez is a fake and b)
that there were no bring backs (fezzes) from Dachau. Go figure...

Correct on illustration "A",
Dan

Dan, through all you repetitive posts I just discovered the above.

The fact that you beleive that this version of skull is post war says a lot of you knowledge/agenda.

Let me ask you something are you pretending that you don't know OR you just don't know???

[TONY Q.W.]

BTW. the same skull as Ben's is on a period photo in the back cover of the book: Camouflage uniforms of the Waffen ss (M. D. Beaver / J.F. Borsarello)

[LUCKYFEZ]

No ben, not you too! LOL!

BenVk Wrote:

Dan, you've have some inconsistencies in your statements.
You say that this rogue took the TK's off and slapped repro ones on, yet you also addmitt that the work was done by a proffesional hand and to high degree of skill. This is hardly slapping them on.

Lets not quible about descriptive words. You get the point.



Next, you say that this idiot was not interested in fezzes, yet he went to the effort of replacing the skulls, why?

Simple. He was, and is an opprotunist. Money is money. Why should he throw the fez away when there are plenty of people who are willing to buy fake, "restored" or questionable fezzes for cash? The focus is on the highend pieces, not the fez. The fez sale is nothing more than iceing on the cake, so to speak. At the time he was doing this in earnest, maybe he did not have the foresight to also strip the eagle, like so many are doing now. Or maybe there was no need at the time. Perhaps he was so smart that if the majority of the fez is authentic, then why not the TK? Who knows, but this is what he did, and probably still does.



You say that the skull on my fez (now sold) is not consistent with the eagle or the hat. That's truly a remarkable eye you have my friend to be able to judge that from the photos. I had it in my hands and can say without a doubt that I've never seen two pieces of insignia on the same garment that looked so consistent in every way!

I clarified my remarks several times by stating up front "according to the photographs posted." As a matter of fact, I even agreed with a different member that the flash and or eagle position in the photo could have had something to do with my opinion.



The guy was the no 1 forger a decade ago you say, yet the guy I bought my fez from got it from his father and claimed it had been in his family since the war's end. This is debatable of course but I still doubt very much that he got it from the grassy knowl in Texas 10 years ago and bought it back to London only to sell it to me for next to nothing because he had no idea what it was in the first instance or it's value.

Perhaps your right, but as you said "debatable." Some people looking to make a buck have small goals.



I said that this skull is narrower than any other variation I know of. You call it a fake.

An opinion.



Nobody I've ever meet in the collecting world apart from you believes that's true.

Key words used: "you have met."


Any evidence of that?

Yes, plenty.



Repro hats made by Lost Battalions with skull? Website of the Pakastani company knocking them out? Anyway, lets call it a fake for now. There is no way in hell anyone can match up the same sticthing holes when appliing this skull over the holes of another differently dimensioned "original" skull.

Really? Some people would say a Picaso could never be faked with such exacting detail, or that the engine block of a 1969 Camaro could not be forged from a Ford. Some also had said that no man in the world could have forged the Salamander Letters, or Hitlers diaries.


Sorry Dan, I know a bit about restoring cloth and insigina, I don't care where she worked, unless she had a "blank" fez to work on, it ain't going to happen.

If that is your opinion, ok.



Another drink mate? I'll have to open the Jamesons in a minute!

Always, amigo.

Look this post has driffted so far from its orignal premise, that it has become clouded by "who is the wittiest." My opinion is my opinion, take it or leave it. Nothing simpler could be done. I would say though that I have only seen a few people so confronted about an opinion, on an item that has been said is so unpopular. maybe its best to read posts, and not participate. That is a sad statement but true. A ton of info will be lost with that attitude, and the collector in the end (including me) is the one who will suffer. Is that really what we all want? I don't.

Gentlemen I am going to salvage what is left of my day off, and go do some yard work before the snow hits. See you all on another thread......I am sure..LOL! See Ya.

Dan

[TONY Q.W.]

...now lets move to the thread "Post your RAREST cap" on the 'Cloth head gear" forum. Then quickly go to page 8. OHH my God, look at these caps with the "fake" skull, ohhh now go to page 9 and take a look on that ss-over seas DAK cap and yes it has the same "fake" skull.

Dan, according to your opinion the caps above are fakes, am I right???>

[BenVK]

Any evidence of that?

Yes, plenty.

Dan

That's what I've been wanting to hear after 6 pages of posts, care to share that evidence with us?

You can end this merry-go-round right now if you do.

[LUCKYFEZ]

BenVK,

I was answering your question about other collectors feeling as I do about those style TK's being used on fezzes. I am not alone in my opinion. Names of people "you have not met" I am sure are meaningless. If they chose to post something here, then fine, otherwise its not my place to drag them into the topic.

As for posting documents, or shipping diagrams etc, I already stated that what little I do have in the way of copies, will not prove my claim. The majority of research was done on note pads, laptops etc while using the research library in Dallas and abroad. Besides, it was already implied that the documents could be forged, so whats the difference. Let's face it, the only way people here will be convinced is either:

1. Reading it printed by an accepted author in some reference book.

or

2. Going and reading the info for yourselves first hand.

Ben I am not holding on to some secret information here. On the contrary, my friends and I discuss this topic heavily all the time. Fellow collectors I have met both here, on this board, and abroad knwo the info. call me, and I will be more than happy to discuss anything I do know about, theories etc. I sent my number to you on the private message. Just call.

Boring subject, lets all move on to the next ride.



TonyQ,

Please do your best in understanding the difference between discussing aspects of a specific type of TK, and how it relates to the overall piece being discussed, and the usage of similar original ones on other headgear. Other headgear is not the topic, nor can your usage of the word "all" be applicable on this thread.

The bushes wait for no man.........

Dan

[TONY Q.W.]

TonyQ,

Please do your best in understanding the difference between discussing aspects of a specific type of TK, and how it relates to the overall piece being discussed, and the usage of similar original ones on other headgear. Other headgear is not the topic, nor can your usage of the word "all" be applicable on this thread.

The bushes wait for no man.........

Dan

Ohh Dan, post #79 is where all the juice is. Please be a man and don't try to run away now. You are clearly stating on post #79 that Ben's skull is a fake, THUS all skulls that are exact as Ben's are fakes, thus the caps posted on thread "Post your RAREST cap" are fakes ( 1+1+1=3) . You know that everything is interrelated..

[BenVK]

Dan, you've lost me again, sorry.

Are you saying that this TK is fake, period (as I believe you guys in the US of A say )

or..

Are you saying that its a type of original but not found on original Handshar Division fezzes in your opinion?

BTW, My girlfriend cannot believe I'm argueing about fezzes!! Apparantely, there's more to life than this.. silly girl..

[TONY Q.W.]

Let's say for arguement's sake that this did happen and a large quantity had their original skulls removed and this variation put on. This type of skull is narrower across it's width than any other variation that I know of. It's also a bit smaller than most as well.

Most will chalk this up to "variations." I call it fake.



Dan

Ben, according to what he has already stated (now he's trying to take it back) YES, he's stating that your TK is fake, period. Check his words on top.

[JOHN VD HEIJDEN]

Sorry I have to disagree on some points brought forward here. I have no doubt about the following:

Fez Body/ Linning
Eagle Insignia
Tassel

I do however believe that the TK pictured here is not an authentic example. This TK lacks the detail, and dimension that orignals found on fezzes contain. .

dan

I.M.H.O. this nice bevo-skull is a war-time piece and also one of the rare little type and late one produced
But that is just mine opinion

[TONY Q.W.]

I.M.H.O. this nice bevo-skull is a war-time piece and also one of the rare little type and late one produced
But that is just mine opinion

Amen to that

[LUCKYFEZ]

Dan, you've lost me again, sorry.

Are you saying that this TK is fake, period (as I believe you guys in the US of A say )

or..

Are you saying that its a type of original but not found on original Handshar Division fezzes in your opinion?

BTW, My girlfriend cannot believe I'm argueing about fezzes!! Apparantely, there's more to life than this.. silly girl..

Yes it is my opinion that the TK on your fez is not the proper style for that headgear type. I believe that the one that was on your fez was made after WWII. Yes there are known examples of this style, that is not in argument, but not on authentic fezzes that I have encountered. Contrary to what TonyQ is trying to prove, the argument here is the TK on your fez, not the TK style in general. He once again took the quote out of context of the orignal post. Obviously some can't see past their own noses to understand, and have a knack at manipulating words to thier benefit.

Whats wrong with your girlfriend? Fezzes are the center of our entire universe! My wife read the entire post, and asked why I was wasting my time with people who are set in their beliefs, and don't care to learn anything new? Good point.

Dan