Maroon SS-Fez

[BenVK]

Dan, I've got to disagree with your comments about the skull being a post war copy, that's just wrong.
Here's a fez I used to own, a never messed with example of that I'm 101% sure.

[LUCKYFEZ]

BenVK,

How do you know yours is 100% original? I stated my reasons as to why I believe the example at the begining of the thread to be incorrect. Please explain the provenance/ reasons as to how you know the piece you have shown is 100% correct.

Here are two examples of correct TK's on original 100% correct Fezzes:

http://www.deathheads.net/ss_grey_fez.htm

http://www.deathheads.net/fez_2.htm

You should notice a large difference in the details on the original TK's, and the lack of detail on the one that started the thread.

Dan

[TONY Q.W.]

Dan, the fez that Ben posted is 100% correct and the skull also. There are some variations of original skulls with slight different dimentions.

[LUCKYFEZ]

Tony,

Very true, however, that does not mean that the TK on the fez shown was original. I am not battleing anyone here, but it seems that the "variations" are the excuses that most collectors depend on to justify questionable pieces. These "variations" have become the rule in collecting, rather than the exception. Variation by its implication means not of the norm. Therefore you have to deduce that the norm would be the most encountered example of a specific item, not some "variation." I may have been doing this too long, but all the known original examples I have handled, and helped with, have been consistently the same in regards to TK's. The only variations in dealing with authentic Handschar fezzes I have encountered are the usage of enlisted sleeve eagles vs. original design size, some embroidered forms (scarce at best), metal insignia (encountered only 1 authentic), tassell connections, sweatband color/ thickness, variant red color, and height of both green and red examples. I have handled litteraly more than a few hundred, and of those, about 2% were without question 100% authentic. Sorry I still think that the TK in the begining of this thread is a post war product. Call me a purist, but I am not into the "variations" clause when dealing with regulated uniforms. Do variations exsist from manufacturer to manufacturer, sure, but does it prove this TK? Nope. Considering only 2 manufacturers made the fezzes, one made red and one made the green, and there are several known authentic examples on the market of each, its simply not fessable to use the "variations" clause in this case. Even with the shortages that were occuring between 1942- 1944, the TK's have remained consistent on original examples. I respect everyones input, but I am not convinced. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I would still like to know the reasons as to why Ben's is authentic.

Dan

[BenVK]

Hi Dan, I'm curious to know why you think only 2% of the hundreds of fez's you've handled are authentic? If it's because the 98% had this varation of skull then I'm not surprised that you think this way. You don't beleive in this type of TK. Fair enough, that's your opinion. I disagree, I've handled a few fez's, not hundreds but a fair amount. By far the most common TK upon them have been this type. That proves nothing either way IMO, however by judging the fez as a whole and it's construction, application of insignia, natural ageing etc etc, I can form an educated opinion that on the examples I felt were authentic, the insignia were applied at the time of manufacture and not later. So that begs the question, have all the examples I've seen been exceptionaly good post war copies of at least 3, 4 or 5 decades of age or are they original pre 45 Third Reich production? If the answer is no, they are copies, why did they all have original eagles but repro (your claim) skulls stitched on with the same thread, same ageing of thread, same weight and spacing of stitching, same way of tucking the backing material, same toning of the insignia itself?

BTW. The fez I posted come from the son of the British vet that bought it home. It's not really worth mentioning that because we all know that repros have come from vets and their families. I personnaly don't believe anything anyone tells me unless I put in the effort to do my own research to back up their claims.

Cheers
Ben

[bwanek1]

Dan,

Quite simply you don't know what you are talking about with regard to KNOWN machine woven (aka BeVo) TK styles. The one on the fez at the start of this thread (like the one currently for sale on the Collector's Guild site) is a well documented original style. It is also well known to have been used on fezzes.

Brad

[LUCKYFEZ]

BenVk,

I certainly respect your opinion, however in your discussion of "why you know yours is authentic," well I did not see mention of documentation or side by side comparisons of undisputed oriignals. I gathered my information from many sources:

Dallas Holocaust Museum (Inventory Records Of Dachau Storage 1-16, Brinnlitz Manufacture depot #3, Purchase/ Shipping Details of Brinnlintz)

Photographic documention provided by the Imperial War Museum, Los Angeles Holocaust Museum, Washington DC Museum Of Tollerance, Glider Museum of WWII Denton Tx

Orignal examples in my personal collection obtained directly from former member of the 13th Handschar Division, obtained while being interviewed by the Dallas Holocaust Museum. Over 9 years of archive credentials for the various Museums accross the country, specializing in Waffen-SS inventory.

Templete photos, and examples of the manufacturer aide of TK's used by Brinnlitz Manufactory #3 in the collection of Ron Kwan.

Last but certainly not least, I have been specializing in the Handschar Division and its uniforms since 1994. The claim that I do not know what I am talking about in regards to embroidered Bevo TK insignia is ridiculous. I am not saying that there are not "variations" of these items on various headgear. I was very specific about these "variations" not being used on the Handschar fezzes.

as for why this person was taking the TK's off, and not the eagle......who knows, but that is what he was doing for many, many years. Perhaps its because the TK's were what he needed to either fake other items, or increase the value on other original headgear. Who knows why idiots do what they do?

Now this should be be sufficient to back my assertion. You don't have to agree with it, and that is fine. We agree to disagree. Simple.

[TONY Q.W.]

Tony,

I would still like to know the reasons as to why Ben's is authentic.

Dan

Dan, simply put it, Ben's is an original because many identical skulls(exact look and texture) were brought back by veterans. Thus, nowadays we compare the ones in the market with the ones that the vets brought back and we can conclude with extrime certainty that are identical in any way. Great attemts have been made to copy 'these' originals with not good results yet (still identifible).

[Dennis S]

Dan, Maybe you can post a closeup photo of this Texas dealers handiwork. We can than compare his skull to the variations others are standing behind. Maybe there is a difference some may be missing or not. Hey! somebody may learn something out of this.

[LUCKYFEZ]

Yes of course the "Dachau" versions. Those many fezzes that were used by sainted U.S. Servicemen as "shopping baskets," for the more wanted collar tabs, cuff titles, etc..........lets not go there its too tiresome. If that is what is being used for comparisons, then no wonder why all the confusion. If anyone is interested I have a really big bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Dan

[BenVK]

Last but certainly not least, I have been specializing in the Handschar Division and its uniforms since 1994. The claim that I do not know what I am talking about in regards to embroidered Bevo TK insignia is ridiculous. I am not saying that there are not "variations" of these items on various headgear. I was very specific about these "variations" not being used on the Handschar fezzes.

I not specialize in the headgear of the Handschar Division. A bit too specialized for me.
I have only my experience in dealing with TR headgear from right across the spectrum. If the skulls on the fez I owned and the others I've handled have been replaced, leaving the original eagles in place and can be proved to me as being so, then I'll readily admitt defeat and go and collect something else.
Can you show us an example of a "replaced" tk on a fez and expain how you came to that conclusion? I'm not picking a fight here, just want to learn.

[TONY Q.W.]

Yes of course the "Dachau" versions. Those many fezzes that were used by sainted U.S. Servicemen as "shopping baskets," for the more wanted collar tabs, cuff titles, etc..........lets not go there its too tiresome. If that is what is being used for comparisons, then no wonder why all the confusion. If anyone is interested I have a really big bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Dan

Whatever you say.........

[LUCKYFEZ]

BenVK,

I respect your opinion, and believe me there is certainly no battle on my end. Unfortunetly I stopped collecting examples of this persons works several years ago, as I had already obtained my fezzes from a Handschar troop. My response to this thread was to help spread some knowledge. Over the years I have had access to original documents from the factories that made the fezzes, shipping records, templetes used for the fabrication of the original fezzes and TK's (which by the way were manufactured on site). That is why I find it hysterical that people really want to believe that Dachau had this endless supply of fezzes for troops to use as shopping bags., or that there are so many "variations" of Bevo TK's used on fezzes. Its funny. Not one piece of documentation from Dachau, Brinnlitz, nor the companies involved in the manufacture can confirm these shippments for "storage", or variations in Bevo style TK's placed on the fezzes. Records were destoryed, sure, but the factory records are intact. I formed my opinion based on hard evidence, authentic proven examples, not on soldier stories. The first fake fezzes started popping up on the market in Germany during the 1970's. So it is entirely possible that there could be fakes with 'age." Your is not the case. I believe yours is a product of the Texas idiot. Also note that everyone always talks about how bad fakes were inthe 1970's in terms of quality, but that is a pharse. Many good fakes are still on the market being sold as original, and they are good! Remember that the companies that were making the TR headgear/ uniforms etc during the war, are still doing it to this day. The best thing I have heard recently was on a different thread here, but in a nutshell the erson said that in the 1970's Waffen-SS tunics were seldom encountered, now there sellers have 2 or three at a time? Speaks volumes to me. You know it's a real good thing that none of the troops that liberated Dachau were confused, or detracted from pilleging the wharehouses. I mean with all the piles of dead bodies smell....well..........you get the point.

Dan

[BenVK]

Dan, I hear what your saying but I guess what we all want to see is some form of proof that some scoundrel was churning these, in your opinion, questionable fezzes out at some distant point in the past. There is just no way that these are modern day concoctions and we've all been fooled. You have to give us more credit than that.

[billbert]

The fez is real..dachau fezs are real..Believe what you want..Maybe you can find a vet in your neighborhood who was there..Eisenhower shuttled as many servicemen as possible thru the caps so when the day came that no one believed there would still be testament..I guess he should have had them walk thru the supply area..I guess you wouldnt believe the winchester 73 that was wrapped around a pole there either but that was there too!!Billbert
guess its one of those agree to disagree things...