Delich COA LAH Panzer Wrap

[Silberkreuz]

To distill this the only real gripe here is someone paid a large amount for this. Let's remember that this was an auction and several bidders felt it was worth it. Great collections often require the buyer to pay more than others to get the top material. Many great things I bought I paid way too much for in years gone by are looking pretty good today.

totally agree.. hope the buyers happy with it.
best Colin

[AntiqueWW2]

The wrapper has no continuous evidence that goes back to 1945. If that was the case then nobody here has to doubt anything. But the evidence goes back exactly to 1982 if you believe and have a lot faith then until 1964, and that is all. I also read that SS Panzer Wrappers were introduced in mid 1941. Everything before that were modified Heer versions. That is correct, but then someone has to explain to me how a Panzer Wrapper, which as the name says was worn by someone in a tank at the front, survives 4 years of war on the eastern front in this condition? No stains inside, not a single hole that has been repaired, absolutely nothing. Further one should not forget that the LAH was extremely preferred in the first 2 years by Dietrichs influence, and always had the best equipment, the best supplies etc. And still there was an officer of the LAH who wore an army wrapper for 4 years and who survived the war in that condition...very very very funny. I had 2 SS officer wrappers which really came from the veteran who wore it in the war, and neither of them was anywhere near in the same condition as this one. What about all the Hitler Visors, Goring Tunics...they all come with exactly those letters from exactly those Dealers from exactly that time...and still they are all crap. But no, a Wehrmacht wrapper with LAH effects has to be original, because the letter is included. I collect since day one because of the History, and not because of money or to invest. If tomorrow everything I have in the collection is not worth a cent anymore, it will still mean as much to me as it does right now. But I wouldn't even touch this Wrapper with a barge pole. All anyone can do with a piece like this is believe And I don't have that much faith when you look at the hundreds of other super rare and more expensive pieces that are all based on a letter and story from the Dealer and still all are crap and fake.

Many of these so-called Vet Bringbacks were bought in Austria or Germany, then provided with a nice story in the USA, then sent through some Dealers and Auction Houses or Museums and in the end they were perfectly original and nobody had any reason to doubt it. Sometimes Dealers simple came along who had no idea where the Item really came from, and just believed the good story or the letter that came with it. And yes, I know some of these Items where I know exactly who had it first and which way it went. Militaria was unfortunately always the hobby in which one could make a lot of money the easiest. That was all before the Internet. One reason why I say the same thing every time, if you can't prove something 100%, and it is a piece that is in such a price range, then you just pay the price for what the parts are worth. Or you have a very strong faith and then you just pay what you want to get it. Everyone should collect as he wants, it should be fun in the end.

[RobertE]

At the risk of sounding repetitious, no one is advocating that an item be bought solely on a story, veteran or otherwise. But to completely discount the account of where the item came from - particularly when the source is a veteran - is also to throw out the story of how it was captured or picked up. I have hundreds of notes from veteran's providing their account of how the item came to be in my hands.

I understand this is a foreign concept to many collectors on this forum, but the background on the item - I'll call it the "story" - used to be one of the most interesting factors in collecting. I'm not saying buy something based on a COA, which is generally a statement by another collector or dealer. I am saying to COMPLETELY discount where the item came from is a mistake.

regards, Robert

[RobertE]

To illustrate the point, is it smart to discount the letter from the veteran for this group? On the phone, he could honestly tell me why he picked up what, and provided anecdotes that did not increase the cash value of the items but changes the way I look at them and their value to me.

There is a cynicism that has invaded the hobby and speaks purely to cold, hard cash - how to protect "investments" and assuming everything is bought to be turned for a profit. That's why "buy the item, not the story" is a byline for an entire collecting generation - you can't sell a story and capture accounts are for fools. I can understand some of that attitude for certain - war stories and capture accounts have been manufactured by collectors and veterans alike since 1945. That doesn't mean the oral history of how an item was acquired should be automatically discounted.

regards, Robert

[AntiqueWW2]

To illustrate the point, is it smart to discount the letter from the veteran for this group? On the phone, he could honestly tell me why he picked up what, and provided anecdotes that did not increase the cash value of the items but changes the way I look at them and their value to me.

There is a cynicism that has invaded the hobby and speaks purely to cold, hard cash - how to protect "investments" and assuming everything is bought to be turned for a profit. That's why "buy the item, not the story" is a byline for an entire collecting generation - you can't sell a story and capture accounts are for fools. I can understand some of that attitude for certain - war stories and capture accounts have been manufactured by collectors and veterans alike since 1945. That doesn't mean the oral history of how an item was acquired should be automatically discounted.

regards, Robert

Absolutely right. I myself have some very rare Groups with a letter just like this, written by the Vet himself. I haven't collected a single day for profit or to make money, but I want to make sure that every piece I have in my collection can tell a Story and i can tell the History behind it. The History of a piece is the most important thing for me. No matter what it is worth or not.

But there's a big difference between a letter written by a Vet in which he describes exactly what it is or where it comes from and a letter written by a Dealer where the letter doesn't say anything. If it's like Delich writes in the letter, then as a Dealer I want to make sure to get as much information as possible about the piece. How is the brothers name, where was he, in which unit was he.....but there is nothing about that in the letter and therefore it is worthless. He didn't even write down the name of the antique dealer. But he wrote clearly how rare the wrapper is, and he has never seen another one and that the Dealer was 88 Years old, now thats the Info i want to see.....well, as written....it takes a lot of faith.

[90th Light]

The wrapper has no continuous evidence that goes back to 1945. If that was the case then nobody here has to doubt anything. But the evidence goes back exactly to 1982 if you believe and have a lot faith then until 1964, and that is all. I also read that SS Panzer Wrappers were introduced in mid 1941. Everything before that were modified Heer versions. That is correct, but then someone has to explain to me how a Panzer Wrapper, which as the name says was worn by someone in a tank at the front, survives 4 years of war on the eastern front in this condition? No stains inside, not a single hole that has been repaired, absolutely nothing. Further one should not forget that the LAH was extremely preferred in the first 2 years by Dietrichs influence, and always had the best equipment, the best supplies etc. And still there was an officer of the LAH who wore an army wrapper for 4 years and who survived the war in that condition...very very very funny. I had 2 SS officer wrappers which really came from the veteran who wore it in the war, and neither of them was anywhere near in the same condition as this one. What about all the Hitler Visors, Goring Tunics...they all come with exactly those letters from exactly those Dealers from exactly that time...and still they are all crap. But no, a Wehrmacht wrapper with LAH effects has to be original, because the letter is included. I collect since day one because of the History, and not because of money or to invest. If tomorrow everything I have in the collection is not worth a cent anymore, it will still mean as much to me as it does right now. But I wouldn't even touch this Wrapper with a barge pole. All anyone can do with a piece like this is believe And I don't have that much faith when you look at the hundreds of other super rare and more expensive pieces that are all based on a letter and story from the Dealer and still all are crap and fake.

Many of these so-called Vet Bringbacks were bought in Austria or Germany, then provided with a nice story in the USA, then sent through some Dealers and Auction Houses or Museums and in the end they were perfectly original and nobody had any reason to doubt it. Sometimes Dealers simple came along who had no idea where the Item really came from, and just believed the good story or the letter that came with it. And yes, I know some of these Items where I know exactly who had it first and which way it went. Militaria was unfortunately always the hobby in which one could make a lot of money the easiest. That was all before the Internet. One reason why I say the same thing every time, if you can't prove something 100%, and it is a piece that is in such a price range, then you just pay the price for what the parts are worth. Or you have a very strong faith and then you just pay what you want to get it. Everyone should collect as he wants, it should be fun in the end.

Has anyone said this LAH wrap was worn for 4 years at the front ?

I have seen dress and excellent condition items that USA and UK soldiers took from the cupboards of houses in Germany in 1945 and later. My father wore Australian webbing as a NZ officer during the Malayan Emergency in the late 1950's because he found it more functional when compared to the issued UK items for jungle warfare and being a company commander at that time he could get away with it. His dress uniform was a high quality British tailor made uniform that he purchased second hand because it looked very stylish, fitted like a glove and was easy to change the insignia over from UK to NZ. It happens in many armies around the world

Could this simply be a pre-41 SS wrap worn as a walking out uniform when home on leave or even some where like a photographers studio ?

May be he got an SS issue wrap in 41 or a bit later and wore that at the front, no longer wanting to wear a WH cut of wrap ?

How do we even know that this officer was a front line officer ? There is a lack of award loops, may-be he was an administrative officer bound to a desk but still wanting to look the part ?

I agree that caution is justified but there are several possibilities that are perfectly feasible. Just because it does not show hard combat wear does not mean it must be a postwar put together. That is but one possibility,

Chris

[AntiqueWW2]

Has anyone said this LAH wrap was worn for 4 years at the front ?

I have seen dress and excellent condition items that USA and UK soldiers took from the cupboards of houses in Germany in 1945 and later. My father wore Australian webbing as a NZ officer during the Malayan Emergency in the late 1950's because he found it more functional when compared to the issued UK items for jungle warfare and being a company commander at that time he could get away with it. His dress uniform was a high quality British tailor made uniform that he purchased second hand because it looked very stylish, fitted like a glove and was easy to change the insignia over from UK to NZ. It happens in all armies around the world

Could this simply be a pre-41 SS wrap worn as a walking out uniform when home on leave or even some where like a photographers studio ?

May be he got an SS issue wrap in 41 and wore that at the front ?

I agree that caution is justified but there are several possibilities that are perfectly feasible. Just because it does not show hard combat wear does not mean it must be a postwar put together. That is but one possibility,

Chris

Absolutely right Chris. My opinion is just that, my opinion. I look at something, then the whole story about it, the condition etc... and then I form my opinion. It might as well be quite different. Only there is a lot to be said against it. I can only speak from my experience, what kind of uniforms I got directly from the hands of veterans, what their condition was like and then compare that with what someone here posts.

To what you write, that maybe he used the uniform as his jacket he wore when he was on leave well, how did the brother of our 88 years old Anitk Dealer get the jacket? One more question that no one can answer.

Anyone can do what they want with their money. I can only talk about myself, and if I buy something as rare as this jacket and then pay the premium price for it, I want to make sure that it is what it claims to be. And as far as I can see, the evidence is... extremely thin.

[RobertE]

No one is wrapped around the axle on the letter from Dave but the detractors. As Phild and David B. pointed out, this isn't a COA but a statement with some general recollections. And those recollections came from a name synonymous with rare SS insignia because of decades of demonstrated knowledge and an enormous collection - look at some of the credits in references you consider to be of value and you'll see some of his stuff.

I have seen collectors desperate for reputation push and shove to gain collector attention and top dog status, and probably mortgaged their house to attempt to build a pile of stuff. Dave Dellich is not one of these - and if the math doesn't add up then he would either explain it or admit a brain fart, which you will NEVER see from the ersatz experts tripping over themselves with what constitutes textbook items.

My point - again - is that the oral history of an item should be considered when a purchase is made. To imply that collectors would buy a 20K item based solely on a letter is preposterous - no one is saying that - but I bristle when all capture or custody accounts are dismissed as BS out of hand. AntiqueWW2, I'm directing that statement at other posters so don't take it personally.

regards, Robert

[AntiqueWW2]

No one is wrapped around the axle on the letter from Dave but the detractors. As Phild and David B. pointed out, this isn't a COA but a statement with some general recollections. And those recollections came from a name synonymous with rare SS insignia because of decades of demonstrated knowledge and an enormous collection - look at some of the credits in references you consider to be of value and you'll see some of his stuff.

I have seen collectors desperate for reputation push and shove to gain collector attention and top dog status, and probably mortgaged their house to attempt to build a pile of stuff. Dave Dellich is not one of these - and if the math doesn't add up then he would either explain it or admit a brain fart, which you will NEVER see from the ersatz experts tripping over themselves with what constitutes textbook items.

My point - again - is that the oral history of an item should be considered when a purchase is made. To imply that collectors would buy a 20K item based solely on a letter is preposterous - no one is saying that - but I bristle when all capture or custody accounts are dismissed as BS out of hand. AntiqueWW2, I'm directing that statement at other posters so don't take it personally.

regards, Robert

No worries, i not take anything personal Robert At least there is a really good discussion going on which is something nice again. It would be sad if we all always had the same opinion.

[90th Light]

Absolutely right Chris. My opinion is just that, my opinion. I look at something, then the whole story about it, the condition etc... and then I form my opinion. It might as well be quite different. Only there is a lot to be said against it. I can only speak from my experience, what kind of uniforms I got directly from the hands of veterans, what their condition was like and then compare that with what someone here posts.

To what you write, that maybe he used the uniform as his jacket he wore when he was on leave well, how did the brother of our 88 years old Anitk Dealer get the jacket? One more question that no one can answer.

Anyone can do what they want with their money. I can only talk about myself, and if I buy something as rare as this jacket and then pay the premium price for it, I want to make sure that it is what it claims to be. And as far as I can see, the evidence is... extremely thin.

Well I can see how trying to remember everything from 1964 even in 1984 could be a struggle. I am struggling to remember every where I have been in the last two weeks which is required by law right now in NZ because of the lock-down level.

The point is, many who got stuff from veterans back in the 1960's, 70's and 80's just thought the supply was going to continue forever at that time. Over that period more and more items appeared on the market or were offered for sale. Not every collector dealing with the veterans noted all the details carefully. There was not the need, few collectors questioned items like they do today. You met veterans in many places such as work or social functions. It was not rare or unusual to walk into a shop or auction and they were selling items directly from a vet or even a family member. Not many took the time to even ask the vet his details or where exactly he got the item, let alone write it all down. In some cases the vet did not want to tell you the details or them simply saying, "I brought this back from North Africa or Italy" was good enough. In the New Zealand army in WW2, having unexplained enemy material was a chargeable offense. Some even gave things like Soldbuchs to the Red Cross to return to the German family rather than sell them in the later years after the war.

However, I agree with you that if I had to pay US$19,000 + commission. I would want a one looker item that did not have to be explained by feasible possibilities. Probably comes down to how easily one can get and spend US$19,000+ in life. Also some collectors love having items that have been owned by big name collectors or are featured in books on the subject and will pay a premium for such items.

What one man calls poison in life, another calls treasure. Personally, I can see the attraction/ possibilities in this wrap but would not pay that much for it,

Chris

[AntiqueWW2]

Well I can see how trying to remember everything from 1964 even in 1984 could be a struggle. I am struggling to remember every where I have been in the last two weeks which is required by law right now in NZ because of the lock-down level.

The point is that many who got stuff from veterans back in the 1960's, 70's and 80's just thought the supply was going to continue forever at that time. Over that period more and more items appeared on the market or were offered for sale. Not every collector dealing with the veterans noted all the details carefully. There was not the need, few collectors questioned items like they do today. You met veterans in many places such as work or social functions. It was not rare or unusual to walk into a shop or auction and they were selling items directly from a vet or even a family member. Not many took the time to even ask the vet his details or where exactly he got the item, let alone write it all down. In some cases the vet did not want to tell you the details or them simply saying, "I brought this back from North Africa or Italy" was good enough. In the New Zealand army in WW2, having unexplained enemy material was a chargeable offense. Some even gave things like Soldbuchs to the Red Cross to return to the German family rather than sell them in the later years after the war.

However, I agree with you that if I had to pay US$19,000 + commission. I would want a one looker item that did not have to be explained by feasible possibilities. Probably comes down to how easily one can get and spend US$19,000+ in life. Also some collectors love having items that have been owned by big name collectors or are featured in books on the subject and will pay a premium for such items.

What one man calls poison in life, another calls treasure. Personally, I can see the attraction/ possibilities in this wrap but would not pay that much for it,

Chris

1+ Not much to add here. Everyone has his own way of collecting. I prefer the things where I can tell a story about it and know who had it then and what they did in the war. I've always been willing to pay a lot more than market value for something like that. Gives me the opportunity to research, sometimes to bring a group back together. For me personally the most important reason why I collect. Others have other priorities. For them it is enough when something is rare, or good looking. There is nothing to be said against collecting like this. I had the luck to grow up in the middle of Vets, and listen to countless of there stories and get many Items out of there hands. So I see the whole thing a little bit different and collect a little bit different. Important is that the Hobby makes fun....

[90th Light]

1+ Not much to add here. Everyone has his own way of collecting. I prefer the things where I can tell a story about it and know who had it then and what they did in the war. I've always been willing to pay a lot more than market value for something like that. Gives me the opportunity to research, sometimes to bring a group back together. For me personally the most important reason why I collect. Others have other priorities. For them it is enough when something is rare, or good looking. There is nothing to be said against collecting like this. I had the luck to grow up in the middle of Vets, and listen to countless of there stories and get many Items out of there hands. So I see the whole thing a little bit different and collect a little bit different. Important is that the Hobby makes fun....

I can understand and respect how and what you collect. Meeting and getting items from veterans or older collectors who got items directly from veterans has been a privilege which is now sadly an ending era.

My collection is memories of family members, friends, veterans, collectors, dealers, shops and auctions I have known, met and dealt with along the way. Sadly some and many have now passed or gone before their time for one reason or another. I enjoy the nostalgia of remembering where I was and the time of when I got the item. My children to this day still recount the holidays where we stopped at every second-hand or antique shop when we went on holiday somewhere. But hey when you get a billed tropical M40 just hang on a hook with a price label of NZ$250 (US$125) or a green LW tropical buckle with green web and a price sticker of only NZ$100 (US$50), such stops or travel breaks were worth while in more ways than one.

Thats why Dave Delich recollection of his red 1964 Chevy Super Sport convertible bought a smile to my face. Everyone knows a super sport car like my 117 coupe is fast because it is red and this is a very honest human recollection of a time when one found an item for their collection I can relate to,

Chris

[Rigsby]

If memory serves me, isn't there an SS Panzer signals wrapper in the Jack Pia 'SS Regalia' book, that is WH pattern? Good condition I recall, so subject to its provenance, if that too was a vet bring back, it survived remarkably well for a Pre 41 piece!
Rigsby.

[BenVK]

I've done a poor job of trying to explain my view. I'll try again..
I'm not trashing vet bring back stories or the importance that collectors who acquired items directly from vets place on those experiences.
Neither am I trashing the recollections of collectors or dealers that found these items back in the day whether it be Delich or anyone else.
What I have a problem with is being told by those who are not the person who found the item that those recollections constitute rock solid provenance and should not be questioned. It's fine to say that Delich is respected and knowledgeable and his word is good enough for the collectors that know him but that's just an opinion and a suggestion, it's not proof of anything.
It's also not a good thing when an opinion in written down in the form of a statement of fact.
There's been too much of that going on on this forum lately IMO and I'm probably guilty of doing it myself even though I try not to,

[AntiqueWW2]

What I have a problem with is being told by those who are not the person who found the item that those recollections constitute rock solid provenance and should not be questioned. It's fine to say that Delich is respected and knowledgeable and his word is good enough for the collectors that know him but that's just an opinion and a suggestion, it's not proof of anything.

1+ as i wrote already....The "proof" starts in 1982 or with a lot of faith in 1964.....it doesn't have to be Delich's fault, it could just as well have been the 88 year old Dealer who invented the story......for me the ice is just too thin to just accept it without questioning it. Absolute all is possible, for me personal nice but worthless Story and the Wrapper all but a Vet bring back. Anyway, not really matters, who ever bought it need to be the one who is happy with it, he put the Money on the Table for it and owns it now, if nothing else it sure looks great on Display.