Delich COA LAH Panzer Wrap

[Leroy]

No one is wrapped around the axle on the letter from Dave but the detractors. As Phild and David B. pointed out, this isn't a COA but a statement with some general recollections. And those recollections came from a name synonymous with rare SS insignia because of decades of demonstrated knowledge and an enormous collection - look at some of the credits in references you consider to be of value and you'll see some of his stuff.

I have seen collectors desperate for reputation push and shove to gain collector attention and top dog status, and probably mortgaged their house to attempt to build a pile of stuff. Dave Dellich is not one of these - and if the math doesn't add up then he would either explain it or admit a brain fart, which you will NEVER see from the ersatz experts tripping over themselves with what constitutes textbook items.

My point - again - is that the oral history of an item should be considered when a purchase is made. To imply that collectors would buy a 20K item based solely on a letter is preposterous - no one is saying that - but I bristle when all capture or custody accounts are dismissed as BS out of hand. AntiqueWW2, I'm directing that statement at other posters so don't take it personally.

regards, Robert

+1

We are in a new generation of collecting and just have to live with it.

I started collecting in 1958. For many, many years, everything I had came directly from vets (including family members). There were no shows (and certainly no forums). Yes, this "hobby" has morphed into a quagmire of dirty dealers and fake artists, but some of us older folks can count ourselves very fortunate to have enjoyed that earlier experience and to have heard directly from the vet, in their homes and with their families, the background of a piece that most of them were surprised anyone would have any interest in at all.

[Rheinmetall]

In this instance the auction result was largely influenced by the name associated. If this exact wrap were accompanied by the same letter with the only exception of having been written by a little known collector then it would simply not have achieved the amount it did. This is a sad reality of this hobby. A fellow collector friend had recently lamented to me that a few years ago he set up at a show to sell some of his pieces (no, not ss panzer wraps) which he had reasonably priced lower than what dealers were wanting for comparable pieces and he came away very disappointed stating that people were reluctant to buy anything because he didn't have 'name recognition'. But he observed the people who passed him by would go directly to the 'names' and buy the same item at a higher price. Unfortunately there are too many collectors who rely on associated names as opposed to self study to gain knowledge. I am not saying many of the 'names' lack such knowledge but only that I do not feel it should have any bearing upon the sale price of any item.

[N.C. Wyeth]

+1

We are in a new generation of collecting and just have to live with it.

I started collecting in 1958. For many, many years, everything I had came directly from vets (including family members). There were no shows (and certainly no forums). Yes, this "hobby" has morphed into a quagmire of dirty dealers and fake artists, but some of us older folks can count ourselves very fortunate to have enjoyed that earlier experience and to have heard directly from the vet, in their homes and with their families, the background of a piece that most of them were surprised anyone would have any interest in at all.

It's interesting here to note the differing experiences between collectors from the US, and those from elsewhere, or from another time. We in the US and of an older age were fortunate to have experienced something that can never happen again - the opportunity to obtain items directly from a Veteran who brought them home. And even better - we were able to obtain the history of when, where, and how these items were obtained. To a limited extent, that kind of experience may have been possible in other parts of the World - but in no way to the extent that it was here in the US. It's sad to realize that experience may now be gone forever - and a shame to think those kind of accounts and experiences will forever be lost to the coming generations.

Think about this - from this time forward, all the history behind these items will now have to come at best, second-hand . . . and probably from a collector or dealer with no direct connection to the items. Whether it is a history that is written or told, it will not be coming from the person that participated in that past. That feels strange to me. And considering the current collector mindset of questioning all things, and trusting in nothing - going forward will be equally strange. Maybe because of all that has been said, it is understandable the currently popular mantra, "buy the item and not the story" has become so prevalent . . . all be it, so very disheartening. To become that dry about collecting takes almost all the fun out of it.

[AntiqueWW2]

It's interesting here to note the differing experiences between collectors from the US, and those from elsewhere, or from another time. We in the US and of an older age were fortunate to have experienced something that can never happen again - the opportunity to obtain items directly from a Veteran who brought them home. And even better - we were able to obtain the history of when, where, and how these items were obtained. To a limited extent, that kind of experience may have been possible in other parts of the World - but in no way to the extent that it was here in the US. It's sad to realize that experience may now be gone forever - and a shame to think those kind of accounts and experiences will forever be lost to the coming generations.

Think about this - from this time forward, all the history behind these items will now have to come at best, second-hand . . . and probably from a collector or dealer with no direct connection to the items. Whether it is a history that is written or told, it will not be coming from the person that participated in that past. That feels strange to me. And considering the current collector mindset of questioning all things, and trusting in nothing - going forward will be equally strange. Maybe because of all that has been said, it is understandable the currently popular mantra, "buy the item and not the story" has become so prevalent . . . all be it, so very disheartening. To become that dry about collecting takes almost all the fun out of it.

I could never complain that I had too few veterans around me The only difference, mine were Austrians and yours were Americans. Once a year we had veteran meetings at our house, and that's all what had rank and name showed up. From Himmler's daughter to Rochus Misch, everyone was there. And so I had the unique chance to get the story really first hand, as well as many very nice things. That's how I got interested in history and that's why I have my very special way of collecting and seeing the Items. For Example, when Hitlers Buttler told me something was like this back in the day...then i will always believe that more than someone who hasn't been there or may have read somewhere something.

But unfortunately, as you have already written, this time is over. All that remains for me are many films and notes I made and many good memories and nice Items to look at. Unfortunately the collectors of the new generation don't have that anymore. The generation has to stick to Books and also to dealers and trust that everything is just like they say it is. But no one should be surprised that the trust we once had before the internet existed, is not so big anymore. And why should it be, 90% is done over the Internet, you don't drive anymore hundreds of Miles to get an Item or to meet someone, you don't go and hold anymore the Item in your hand before you buy it, or when you see how much crap is on the market, how many stories are invented just to squeeze the last cent out of something, I can only advise everyone to get help from others with more knowledge rather than just trust and buy blind anything that has a nice story, or where you think it comes from a good source. I don't see anything bad in that, the more you watch out the harder you make it for the idiots to take the money out of your pocket.

[Asper]

We all know most uniforms brought back by vets in pristine condition were walkout pieces - not field pieces with the wear one expects. Most were acquired post-war during the occupation as families sold these off to souvenir hungry soldiers so they could get anything of value to survive. Many of these walkouts were hidden or quietly disposed of, as any association to the SS could get surviving vets or their families in hot water - especially Eastern Germany.

[N.C. Wyeth]

We all know most uniforms brought back by vets in pristine condition were walkout pieces - not field pieces with the wear one expects. Most were acquired post-war during the occupation as families sold these off to souvenir hungry soldiers so they could get anything of value to survive. Many of these walkouts were hidden or quietly disposed of, as any association to the SS could get surviving vets or their families in hot water - especially Eastern Germany.

Another good observation.

[jimt]

a very large amount of totally original vet souvenirs came from Motel buys in the 1980's - 1990's , that said 99 % of this material never was questioned as to where it came from or who brought it back , I personally knew a lot of collector/ dealers who will verify this as the normal way they did Motel buys and believe me in that time period there was more stuff coming out of the woodwork than at any other time frame that I remember , I started collecting around 1963 and this time frame ( 1980-1998 ) was the Golden Age of collecting , I did think it would never end , now we have this generation , what a pity ?
jimt

[90th Light]

a very large amount of totally original vet souvenirs came from Motel buys in the 1980's - 1990's , that said 99 % of this material never was questioned as to where it came from or who brought it back , I personally knew a lot of collector/ dealers who will verify this as the normal way they did Motel buys and believe me in that time period there was more stuff coming out of the woodwork than at any other time frame that I remember , I started collecting around 1963 and this time frame ( 1980-1998 ) was the Golden Age of collecting , I did think it would never end , now we have this generation , what a pity ?
jimt

The point you make about the period 1980 to 1990 is a very good one, although those who advertised in the 1970's certainly got some top notch replies to their advertisements. The 1990's was an interesting decade of collecting in more ways than one. Yes veterans were wanting to dispose of items because many had reached that stage of life were they were down sizing or moving on. This vet selling had gained momentum through out the 1980's. However, the 1990's was also an era were fakes/ reproductions got better and better as those who were out to deceive made ground up fakes aiming to achieve super-fakes that could entirely deceive. There have been fakes made since WW2 ended or mucked around with but it was the 1990's were it gained a lot more momentum and this has continued to this very day. That is basically what this thread is all about, can a LAH wrap found in 1964 be simply a resewn WH panzer wrap with SS added after the war or did it exist in that form during the war ???

Also it is worth mentioning that the 1970's to 1990's was the golden age of the mail order catalog such as Forman lists, Wallis and Wallis auctions or Manions postal bid booklets to name but three,

Chris

[nutmeg]

When I buy from a veteran or his children I get a letter if the item merits it and in some cases a photo of the veteran holding the item. However, I only started that about 15 years ago. In a few cases I have photos of the vet with the item during the war and one with his kids playing with the stuff in 1946. Occasionally a bring home permission slip. Frankly. a vet letter is about the most one can hope for these days but most won't accept that now anyway (anyone could have written it) .

[markus]

The last 15 years (I collect for 20 years now) I've also tried to get as much provenance as possible from the vets themselves, families and even pickers. The reason was not any possible resale, but rather to get a more profound and documented history about the pieces/groups which will live on well after my time is over here on this earth. I've been able to get photo affidavits and even videos of the vets showing and speaking about the items. This includes items from many LAH personnel, including the Sepp Dietrich and Michael Wittmann estates. This type of audio/visual documentation adds so much more life to my items/groups and makes them feel very personalized. Even if I look at them today it feels like they were given to me yesterday.

[John Pic]

We’ll be shocked some more. That SS Der Spiess tunic in another thread with the moth eaten insignias and ripped collar sold for around $9,000 on an auction.
So if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.

[nutmeg]

It wasn't cheap by any means but not insane either IMO.

[Robert H]

And still back then anywhere fake stuff was getting mixed up... even at veterans circels.
Provenance alone doesnt mean its always original, but of course maybe % is somehow higher.
Remember as well big US oldtimer collections that where quite mixed up.
Its always quite sad people have something from a vet or "special sources" and its a one looker copy ...

Best is always study and study learn and learn the items by self to judge them no matter where it comes out.

[JK53]

To address some previous questions, my guess is that it has no loops for an EKI but may have loops in some position for a lessor badge like a sports badge.

we have a Heer dated 1940 wrap in pretty much mint condition for LAH PZ 2nt LT. A new 2lt buys 2 wraps from LAH unit supply late 1940 or early 41. They are Heer wraps because the SS had no wrap supply source at that time other than the Heer as there were hardly more than a few hundred SS soldiers authorized to wear them prior to 1941.
Officer leaves one wrap at home and takes the other one and other field uniforms to the front in 1941. Take your pick on if he was killed in the Balkans or USSR later in 41 or even 42 before LAH was relieved, either way tunic was not much worn, no awards or possible promotion reflected on it very simple and probably typical of at least one third of German uniforms I found there

Very strange way of validating a Heer Pz jacket with LAH PZ insignia no wonder it's so easy to sell put together jackets to unsuspecting collectors

[RobertE]

I don't think Phild is validating anything. He is providing a very plausible reason why such a wrapper could be found as a counterpoint to speculations by others. The scenario presented obviously occurred many times; lot's of uniform pieces left at home surfaced after the war.

regards, Robert