Delich COA LAH Panzer Wrap

[Willi Z.]

Items have to speak for themselves, and that is the reality now. The hobby has corrupted itself, many of us have helplessly watched that (and we still are....even here on WAF despite some of us trying), and now we are strongly heading into the "reap what you sow" phase. Why are we surprised? I am not.

Uniforms are easy to fiddle with. Especially officer tunics. I would think $19k is under market price if it were a confident market. I see plenty of well-heeled collectors in the US buying absurd cobbled together officer tunics. And folks try to warn them.

I moved two superb NCO LAH uniforms (M43 tunic and Panzer wrap) for a good chunk more than that, but they spoke for themselves. The "stories" were a factor, but not the dominant one.

The "I got it from a vet" story has been so brutally abused that most wisely ignore it. If it ever was rock solid provenance. Especially beyond the 60s.

[AntiqueWW2]

In the more than 30 years in the hobby I have come across exactly 3 SS officer jackets that I have found to be flawless. Two of them are in my collection, both of them received directly from the veterans himself, and both with a photo of them wearing the uniform during the war. And this is also the only provenance I would accept for SS officers Tunic and pay a premium for. There is simply no such thing nowadays or lets say next to impossible to ran into one. But you can still use your common sense and get as close as you can to something perfect. Just a piece of paper with a story and 19K is certainly not the way to go. There is a difference between blindly trusting a Dealer or spending a lot of time and researching and get something more out of your investment then only looking at it. But this is only possible if you have a name to go with your uniform. One of the reasons I only buy uniforms with a name tags. Now you can say that the name tags can be faked. I claim that I can say 99% of the time if a name label was made and described 80 years ago or 10 years ago. And for everything else you should not pay more than the price of parts, no matter with what story someone comes with. Premium prices you pay when you get something special or when the Item really speaks to you, what also happens from time to time, and then i pay what ever i need to get it. A jacket where you can only say that it has been in war...is nothing special. But this is just my way of collecting. Others just settle for a story and some Letters to pay big bucks, or they don't care if there is something to research at all. I've spent most of the time I collect doing research, one of the most important Things why i even collect. Some Items took years of research, sometimes it came up empty and sometimes it payed off big time. Personal i need to gain something more out of my Hobby then just hang nice Stuff on my wall and look at it.

[RobertE]

One man's photos and direct lineage is another man's well-constructed fraud. Each of us has our own criteria for what constitutes an acceptable proof of originality, and also what we're willing to pay for it.

These discussion become circular - and depressing. Being critical of what another collector is willing to pay in this hobby and assuming blind ignorance is collector arrogance - I can guarantee someone somewhere thinks the same thing about any one of us in this field of collecting.

Many big name dealers and collectors are nervous right now, and all of them aren't ignorant or crooks. This is an SS officer's wrapper being discussed, with no obvious signs of tampering. Good luck to the buyer and I hope he enjoys the piece.

s/f Robert

[AntiqueWW2]

One man's photos and direct lineage is another man's well-constructed fraud. Each of us has our own criteria for what constitutes an acceptable proof of originality, and also what we're willing to pay for it.

These discussion become circular - and depressing. Being critical of what another collector is willing to pay in this hobby and assuming blind ignorance is collector arrogance - I can guarantee someone somewhere thinks the same thing about any one of us in this field of collecting.

Many big name dealers and collectors are nervous right now, and all of them aren't ignorant or crooks. This is an SS officer's wrapper being discussed, with no obvious signs of tampering. Good luck to the buyer and I hope he enjoys the piece.

s/f Robert

Jesus, real real good that everyone has his own criteria.....

[John Pic]

RobertE this is NOT an SS officers wrapper being discussed , this is a Heer officers wrapper with SS insignias. If it was a “textbook” wrapper then maybe there would be no discussion just “wows”.
I agree a person should buy what they like at a price they choose to pay. Too expensive for some but not for others. If that worries dealers ...well darn. There are textbook uniforms out there restored and whole and put together. The Hobby won’t die from this, but as someone posted, we “reap what we sew” in many cases almost literally.

[RobertE]

I know the difference between an SS and army wrapper, as most of us do, and as I'm sure you are aware there are enough cases of army tunics and wrappers that were worn by SS officers that it isn't a major strike. I didn't say anything about textbook, which is a ludicrous expression when discussion a uniform (though I understand why it is used, and often).

Dealers are not the only people wringing their hands, like I said. I collect for my reasons, against my criteria, in my price range. But I'm aware that many collectors have taken the plunge and bought that once-in-a-lifetime piece only to watch all confidence in that uniform item evaporate, leaving them with a depreciated item that they may have hoped would be part of someone's inheritance. I have empathy for those collectors - their wives sure won't.

I think we agree on the fundamentals here, and are probably talking past each other. But the number of acceptable items - from headgear to helmets, uniforms to documents and beyond - is dwindling due to paranoia that EVERYTHING is humped up. For those collectors that never stopped to film the vet passing them the item, pressing him for capture papers, and asking for wartime mug shots wearing the thing, these discussions become exasperating. There is plenty of original stuff out there, but collectors will continue to become more gun shy towards purchasing ANYTHING if this keeps up.

I'll stand by now for the expected pile-on regarding "healthy" paranoia and the wise collector behaves like "XXX" unless they are just plain money-tossing idiots. And then maybe get a nice beer.

s/f Robert

[AntiqueWW2]

And nevertheless it is not a mistake to give the new collectors, who have not been around for decades, a little heads up to pay attention and not believe every story they get told by who ever is the highly respected Source. And that there are more than enough good SS officers uniforms on the market, I want to see that please. 99.9% of them are restored or built. The same goes for many other things in the hobby. There were not enough SS officers back then then there are TOP untouched SS uniforms for sale today. And I don't see anything wrong with questioning a story more than just trusting blindly and putting the money at the table. This is why i prefer my way, research.....

Here is a good Example how much to give for a Story from one of the Dealer pissing there Pants when reading this:

https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...2#post11728611

sold for a ****load of Money by a Dealer.....

Not SS, but just like this one, there are Tons of SS, Wehrmacht and all kind of decked out Fakes out there. So i would say it is not that bad to Question them, no matter who offer what.

[DALE ELLIS]

One would think that even back then a dealer would have gotten a written note from the vets brother on a rare purchase like that.

[RobertE]

There is a huge difference between "trusting blindly and putting money on the table" and considering a wrapper that appears to be fine (insignia and materials + age), was confirmed by a reputable SS grey beard as having been the one he originally obtained over 50 years ago, and was offered by an auction house that answers questions and provides detailed photos for anyone curious enough to ask about it.

Would I have spent that much money for a uniform item I didn't personally examine? Probably not. But this purchase shouldn't be classified as a crap shoot by some gun show walk-in with some creative background added for flavor. I have 0 dog in this fight/discussion, just tired of "a fool and his money are soon parted" clucks on items showing no signs of tampering and every indication of being wartime.

Probably not worth the energy to continue to try and reinforce this point in this venue, though.

s/f Robert

[nutmeg]

I think we agree on the fundamentals here, and are probably talking past each other. But the number of acceptable items - from headgear to helmets, uniforms to documents and beyond - is dwindling due to paranoia that EVERYTHING is humped up. For those collectors that never stopped to film the vet passing them the item, pressing him for capture papers, and asking for wartime mug shots wearing the thing, these discussions become exasperating. There is plenty of original stuff out there, but collectors will continue to become more gun shy towards purchasing ANYTHING if this keeps up.

I'll stand by now for the expected pile-on regarding "healthy" paranoia and the wise collector behaves like "XXX" unless they are just plain money-tossing idiots. And then maybe get a nice beer.

s/f Robert[/QUOTE]

Ultimately, almost no provenance could stand up to a forum going over . In fact I could find reasons to unravel even the most solid ones. A picture of the vet holding up the tunic in 1946 in a newspaper? Someone could have built the tunic to match the picture. Bought it from a well known collector in 1962 , hey, he was famous for humping up stuff , my friend said he did it. I bought loads of stuff from vets from newspaper ads over the years, one or two unquestionably good non textbook items were picked apart. and rather insultingly Learned my lesson and just show things to people whose opinion I respect.

[AntiqueWW2]

There is a huge difference between "trusting blindly and putting money on the table" and considering a wrapper that appears to be fine (insignia and materials + age), was confirmed by a reputable SS grey beard as having been the one he originally obtained over 50 years ago, and was offered by an auction house that answers questions and provides detailed photos for anyone curious enough to ask about it.

Would I have spent that much money for a uniform item I didn't personally examine? Probably not. But this purchase shouldn't be classified as a crap shoot by some gun show walk-in with some creative background added for flavor. I have 0 dog in this fight/discussion, just tired of "a fool and his money are soon parted" clucks on items showing no signs of tampering and every indication of being wartime.

Probably not worth the energy to continue to try and reinforce this point in this venue, though.

s/f Robert

It is even worse then that Put 19K on the Table based on what? A Piece of Paper.....do that Paper include a Picture of the Wrapper? Can you proof anything with that Paper? And when you read it, then it get quickly funny. Who was the Brother from the 88 Year old Dealer? A General in 1945? When the Guy who sold it was 88 in 1964 then, how old was his Brother at the Time he brought it back? A Letter like this was the typical way back then to try to proof something with nothing. I can't remember anymore how many of these Letters i have seen as part of Tunics and other Items and they where all worth.....no more then the Paper where it is written on, in short, nothing. So all what is left is the blank Wrapper. What is a Heer Wrapper with SS Insignia sewn onto it, no name no unit no history, and of course, as always LAH. And then based on all this Nonsense put 19K on the Table.....yeah, well done I can make a very very long list of high End Items, far more Expensive then this Frankenstein here, where People payed 10 Times that Price....also based on a Letter and Story, but where i know for a fact the Item is a Fake and today considered as 100% real because sold with Letter from one of the old Timers who you call "reputable", so must be real.... I don't give a dime who someone is, i always buy the Item, no Story not the reputation from the Guy who sell it nor anything else. Always only the Item. And when you do this with the Wrapper in this Thread, then i need to leave my Brain home to ever spent anything near 19K for it.

And one more Thing about reputable Old Timers. I know a Collector, now passed away. He was back in the 70 and 80 at every Show, Fleemarket, Auction everywhere where he can buy WW2 Stuff. He was a very rich Guy, so he had enough to spent. And always when he showed up...the so called reputable Dealers where waiting for him like hyenas. Every other customer was left standing. And then the super rare items were unpacked, especially for him...LAH uniforms, General's hats, personal Items from Adolf to Hermann....and mostly with some letter to prove the authenticity. Unfortunately the collector didn't have much knowledge, and that was taken advantage of by absolutely everybody. And there were some Dealers who are praised as gods here in the forum today because they wrote a book or did something else. End of the story, the collection of the Guy was 70% fake......all looking great, but fake. And that's exactly why I don't care about reputation, letter and storys, always only the Item itself.

[RobertE]

Each of us has our own criteria for what constitutes acceptable proof of originality, and also what we're willing to pay for it. And that includes considering the source, in my case.

regards, Robert

[BenVK]

It doesn't cease to amaze me how many people fall for 'name dropping' with no firm provenance.

There are entire networks of collectors like this. Sad and funny at the same time.

It always amazes me as well but Willi is correct and has made a key point in my opinion.
There are most definitely groups of collectors who only buy from within their own network and the dealers who supply those networks. I seriously doubt they have any interest in forums like this and even if they do, they no doubt believe we are just a bunch of fools and that's a belief that certain dealers actively encourage.

There was a TV series shown here in the UK recently that was about a military antiques business run by a father and son, I forget the name now. Anyway, they were mostly harmless but it really struck me just how many regular clients they had who would happily buy their overpriced crap. The client I remember clearly was the butcher who bought a pickelhaube which looked dubious to me but he was blissfully happy with it just like all the other ones he'd bought from them over the years.

The other thing that struck me was the old school dealer chat which makes me puke to be honest.
If you don't know what that is, it goes like this "this is a very rare item, you just don't seem them any more" or "very rare and this one is museum quality" or "you won't find another one like this" Basically everything they have is mega rare and you'll never find one by yourself.

Does that sound familiar? Oh wait, Delich said something about this wrapper being as rare as a Dinosaur in Central Park..
In terms of a proper COA and then the follow up where he talks about owning a corvette or whatever, WTF? that's a joke right?

However everyone is free to buy what they want, they certainly don't need the forums approval and in the case of this wrapper, our approval was no doubt the last thing on the winning bidders mind.

And actually I can respect that even though I don't understand the price they paid.

[RobertE]

I assume this dump was based on my remark about the source having value. I didn't mean Mr. Delich specifically, but the general notion that sourcing is of value and should be considered. I sure have been set straight.

regards, Robert

[BenVK]

Robert, I honestly have no idea what you been talking about for the last 3 or 4 posts..