Delich COA LAH Panzer Wrap

[Asper]

I was also surprised by the final sale price on a converted wrap - regardless of provenance and plausibility. However, auction feeding frenzies tend to be catalysts for this sort of outcome, with a hangover following closely behind.

[Ian Hulley]

Some VERY strange mathematics going on here !

According to Paul Hardcastle's '19' ... "In World War 2 the average age of the combat soldier was 26" ... as that was probably from American statistics and the middle of WW2 (as far as the U.S. is concerned ) would be the Autumn of 1943 then the 'average combat soldier' would have been born around 1917.

Ian

[John Pic]

Some VERY strange mathematics going on here !

According to Paul Hardcastle's '19' ... "In World War 2 the average age of the combat soldier was 26" ... as that was probably from American statistics and the middle of WW2 (as far as the U.S. is concerned ) would be the Autumn of 1943 then the 'average combat soldier' would have been born around 1917.

Ian

My father was 18 when he signed up. My Uncle was 19-20. Both WW2 Vets my Dad in 45 my Uncle from 43-46

[N.C. Wyeth]

The crux of this conversation is all about finding an SS Panzer wrapper that bears documented and indisputable evidence of it's authenticity, going all the way back to before the War ended in 1945. What some people like to refer to as, "provenance". The most important part to take away here is that something such as this will almost never be found - or if so, it would undoubtedly be an extremely rare occurrence. That proves true for most everything brought forth for discussion on this Forum - and as we have seen before in the past, to include even some of those things obtained directly from the Veteran, or those with the best of reputation. This conundrum can be applied to everything collected that is related to WW2. At the end of the day, all of this material is subject to being forged . . . and if truth be told, there are items out there so scary that no mater how much someone knows about them - they can sometimes get past even those bearing the best of experience and knowledge. The same proves true in the opposite effect, and has been witnessed on this Forum as well. There are things out there that may actually be authentic . . . but they too have been confused and/or fooled those with the best of experience and knowledge - and condemned to a fate of false accusation. We've all witnessed this. Without this fleeting attribute of "provenance" we all talk about, anything and everything we collect is subject to this double-edged sword. In addition to the spirit of my comment on this topic, I think that is also the point that both "nutmeg" and "RobertE" were attempting to convey.

[BenVK]

There seems to be huge discrepancy between American and Europeans on this subject because I have never met or am aware of another European collector who places such a heavy importance on the "Vet" bring back stories. I have never bought anything based on a story and neither have I bought anything based on a sellers reputation.
So in my opinion, it's definitely not the crux of this conservation and has never been the crux of any conversation on this forum.
It is fascinating though to learn that other collectors place such importance on factors other than just judging the item for what it is and that alone.
Likewise, I am aware of the name Delich but having had no interaction with him, his opinion means absolutely nothing to me..

[phild]

Ben, we had couple (or more) detailed posts on this very thread with a number of others posting in agreement that provenance was everything and that non named items and or those without an iron clad document trail were hardly worthy of a serious collector. Indeed the title of this thread included the term COA when in fact there was never any form of a COA involved just simply a causal letter from 35 years ago saying “this is where I got it”.

I fully agree with Robert E, Nutmeg and N.C Wyeth. I think they sum this buy and all others perfectly.

[BenVK]

Honestly, this thread has really opened my eyes about how disillusional some collectors are, or a hidden agenda going on..
Who are the ones that are "in agreement that provenance was everything" ?
The way I read it, the provenance was becoming increasingly more BS as we went on..

[David B.]

Couldn't have stated it any better Phild. No COA just a description, and look where it ends up. 6 pages of whatever You would like to call it without much being said about an SS Officers Panzer Wrapper. Look at the custom Blurred Edge Camo Suit that was auctioned off at RIAA for about $20K. Not more than 2 pages of comments and I don't believe I saw the term provenance used once when it was posted. I know it sold a couple times for more than $20 k each time. But that is the chance You take at an auction if You are the seller and there isn't a minimum bid requirement. Just My 2 cents worth. DJB

[90th Light]

There seems to be huge discrepancy between American and Europeans on this subject because I have never met or am aware of a European collector who places such a heavy importance on the "Vet" bring back stories. I have never bought anything based on a story and neither have I bought anything based on a sellers reputation.
So in my opinion, it's definitely not the crux of this conservation and has never been the crux of any conversation on this forum.
It is fascinating though to learn that other collectors place such importance on factors other than just judging the item for what it is and that alone.

Ben, we are seeing the passing of a generation of collectors who got to meet, talk to and even document the veterans who actually fought in the second world war. I have always found what they have in their collections or recorded directly from veterans to be both extremely interesting and enlightening. At the other end of the spectrum are those collectors lucky enough to have a big wallet and able to buy the best of the best from top dealers without advertising.

There has been some odd, amazing variation from the norm items found by those who advertised and actually met the vets along side beyond doubt text book items also picked up. The collectors who had the money to buy from top dealers and knew what they were doing, have had some of the best textbooks items I have ever seen. These collectors who bought from trusted dealers only, either did not have the time or desire to advertise and deal direct.

Back in the 1970's and 1980's, getting something from a veteran was simply taken for granted. Many did not stop to even think about the provenance, let alone documenting it carefully. This is a shame because it might have laid to rest some doubts today.

Today on this thread (and WAF in general), there seems to be the assumption that "veteran brought back" is nothing more than "BS". Who am I to say in regard to the authenticity of this LAH panzer wrap but I do think it very sad to see the original respected collector, who found this SS panzer wrap being tarred with such a brush.

I will leave all reading this post of mine with two veteran accounts. These can also be simply written off by here on WAF as nothing more than veteran BS. However, they have left a lasting impression on me. In fact in one of these cases, an affidavit was obtained from the court so the history was not lost and could be legally proved to be an accurate account by the veteran;

Account 1, a former soldier of 28 Battalion, 2NZEF broke down, bawling his eyes out, full of tears as he told the story of German prisoners taken in Italy. They captured a group of Germans between the ages of 18 to 22 in his estimation. Initially they scared them that they were going to be beaten up badly and eaten. After winding them up and finding out what they knew, some food was prepared and the Germans were fed. Later water and drink was shared with these Germans and stories of missed homes, loved ones exchanged. Finally when it was time to turn in, some extra blankets, greatcoats were found and they were tucked in for a nights sleep. The next day the commander of this battalion touched base with this forward NZ unit. He told them to fall back to await an expected counter-attack by the Germans. The members of 28 Battalion asked their commanding officer how they should move the prisoners back. He said he would handle it. He walked over, pulled out his revolver and shot each German prisoner between the eyes. The NZ soldier telling me this said it was wrong in more ways than one, it was his custom that you did not kill a man who you shared your kai (food) with. If you were to kill a man, you did it before you shared food. Interestingly this commanding officer was sentenced to prison after WW2 for murdering a man his wife had an affair with.

Account 2, a friend of mine touched base with a NZ veteran who had several items he had brought back from Italy. One of these items was a Gestapo tag with an extra hole drilled in it. My friend was excited and asked about the Gestapo tag. What a find. The veteran told him that he took it from a dead German soldier during the battle of the River Po. My friend followed up on this and asked was he sure it was a regular German soldier ? The veteran confirmed it was a regular WH German soldier and it was the dog tag the soldier was wearing round his neck. My friend sent images and consulted with Don Bible about his find. This NZ veteran was also a good friend of one of New Zealand's VC winners and shared photos of them both at the war.

Just a couple of examples of my experience of what veterans shared back then and in the words of Ripley, "Believe it or not"

Chris

p.s. I also remember the car I had when the Gestapo tag was found, a red Isuzu 117 coupe. That will bring back a memory or two and a smile on their faces for some in NZ reading this

[phild]

Chris makes a lot of good and true points above not before mentioned.

Ben, look at posts 27,31,35 and others allude to analyzing the specifics of the letter.

Not directed to Ben or anyone else specifically let me say the following:
I saw this wrap back in the mid 80s. I did not carefully examine it as I was not buying it, I think the price then was $5000 but may as well have be $50,000 as I could not afford it. I did not think it proper etiquette to turn it inside out, cut threads and lite with a Bic, lick the bullion insignia, or bend the hell out of the tabs and eagle, you know all the scientific skills plied by the experts then (and now?) to determine authenticity! My recollection of Dave’s collection then was that he had a couple of SS pattern EM wraps but only this as an officer’s wrap. I did not know Dave well but during the few years we had contact I found him to be a serious student of SS cloth, honest and a gentleman. These qualities are generally sneered at today but I almost felt compelled to respond to many earlier posts by writing “I knew Dave Delich and you sir are no Dave Delich!”, but I was afraid the ghost of Lloyd Benson would haunt me forever.

More importantly some things need to be understood.

1. SS officer’s tunics are rare and were rare. I’d been looking everywhere since about 1975 and this was the first one I actually recall seeing after 10 years of looking. No surprise to me that Dave had not seen another one either.

2. As far as I’m concerned there is no such thing as an SS cut PZ wrap made before 1941 and I lean toward late 1941 or even 1942 before the SS pattern started production or distribution. Every reference book showing pre 41 SS PZ soldiers show them in Heer style wraps and trousers as best as I can tell although they generally caption the photos as SS style wraps, they are not.
So when the term textbook is used, I have to ask are the textbooks correct?
Lastly I don’t know if the buyer had information that no one else had and or if he had actually inspected the insignia sewing, lack of ghost from Heer eagle and Heer tab traces and other things that we simply do not know.
I think this wrap can be verified as being or not being what it purports itself to be as there are many things to check and many places a fatal mistake could and would have been made. I hope it’s “real” and if it proves to be it will be one of the nicest, earliest and most prestigious unit SS Officer wraps in existence as well as a striking collection center piece

[JustinS]

Given how far removed from the war we are and the lengths that scumbags will go with the intent to deceive, provenance is essentially irrelevant now(in my opinion). The item must speak for itself. I will listen to a story, but it means nothing. The item IS the story now.

[N.C. Wyeth]

Good job guy's - keep it up. Apparently, these experiences are foreign to many more than I thought.

[Asper]

Ben, we are seeing the passing of a generation of collectors who got to meet, talk to and even document the veterans who actually fought in the second world war. I have always found what they have in their collections or recorded directly from veterans to be both extremely interesting and enlightening. At the other end of the spectrum are those collectors lucky enough to have a big wallet and able to buy the best of the best from top dealers without advertising.

There has been some odd, amazing variation from the norm items found by those who advertised and actually met the vets along side beyond doubt text book items also picked up. The collectors who had the money to buy from top dealers and knew what they were doing, have had some of the best textbooks items I have ever seen. These collectors who bought from trusted dealers only, either did not have the time or desire to advertise and deal direct.

Back in the 1970's and 1980's, getting something from a veteran was simply taken for granted. Many did not stop to even think about the provenance, let alone documenting it carefully. This is a shame because it might have laid to rest some doubts today.

Today on this thread (and WAF in general), there seems to be the assumption that "veteran brought back" is nothing more than "BS". Who am I to say in regard to the authenticity of this LAH panzer wrap but I do think it very sad to see the original respected collector, who found this SS panzer wrap being tarred with such a brush.

Chris, many of us are silent but share your views and have been fortunate enough to have had experiences first hand with vets. Although I have always believed that an item must stand on its own, we must also keep and pass along whatever stories/ accounts/ provenance comes with it. In many cases the information may be fiction, but in many cases it is partially or fully factual. To discard all info based on fear of ridicule would be irresponsible as it would be lost forever.

I don't collect for investment, or variations of items, but merely for the combat history associated with these items, without it - all this is mere junk that my wife would be too glad to dispose of.

[WalterB]

Chris, many of us are silent but share your views and have been fortunate enough to have had experiences first hand with vets. Although I have always believed that an item must stand on its own, we must also keep and pass along whatever stories/ accounts/ provenance comes with it. In many cases the information may be fiction, but in many cases it is partially or fully factual. To discard all info based on fear of ridicule would be irresponsible as it would be lost forever.

I don't collect for investment, or variations of items, but merely for the combat history associated with these items, without it - all this is mere junk that my wife would be too glad to dispose of.

Agreed. True/real provenance enriches an item since it gives us some of its history. To those that collect for investment, that may mean nothing. To those that collect for the history, that means a great deal. I am not ashamed to admit I am in the latter category.

[Kale Michael]

I really like this wrapper. It’s awesome
congrats to the buyer