Delich COA LAH Panzer Wrap

[phild]

But it doesn't make any sense, as the Pz.Btl wasn't instituted till 2.42

The recon battalions with an armored car type company was formed circa 1939 In LAH and maybe a year earlier in the VT and about the same time in the TK. The crews of the armored recon vehicles wore the black PZ uniforms and as best as I can tell from looking at maybe 50 photos of these troops from about 1938-1940 they wore Heer cut PZ uniforms. Single button trouser pocket flaps can clearly be made out, wraps are tougher in terms of saying for sure that the placket fly is straight or not but the collars are Heer shaped for sure and the lapels are shorter purely because they ALL wear the fifth button closed, Just like this example and unlike hardly ever seen on a heer used wrap in wear.
no example of a pre 1942 SS made wrap seems to be published. If one exists I’d like to see it. In CSP’s volume II a SS wrap claimed to be early is pictured (no interior photos seem to be ascribed to it however) and it has center rear seam, heer type collar and wide spaced lapel button holes so I don’t know what makes it SS except the 90 degree front but it must be realized that the degree of the diagonal cut could vary a good deal on Heer wraps with many having very little angle to the front.

My point is, as you kind of state, there was little SS armor prior to 1941-42 and if this officer was in fact assigned to a or the LAH armored recon company in 1940 this may well have been the only source (Heer) of wrap available

[John Pic]

The recon battalions with an armored car type company was formed circa 1939 In LAH and maybe a year earlier in the VT and about the same time in the TK. The crews of the armored recon vehicles wore the black PZ uniforms and as best as I can tell from looking at maybe 50 photos of these troops from about 1938-1940 they wore Heer cut PZ uniforms. Single button trouser pocket flaps can clearly be made out, wraps are tougher in terms of saying for sure that the placket fly is straight or not but the collars are Heer shaped for sure and the lapels are shorter purely because they ALL wear the fifth button closed, Just like this example and unlike hardly ever seen on a heer used wrap in wear.
no example of a pre 1942 SS made wrap seems to be published. If one exists I’d like to see it. In CSP’s volume II a SS wrap claimed to be early is pictured (no interior photos seem to be ascribed to it however) and it has center rear seam, heer type collar and wide spaced lapel button holes so I don’t know what makes it SS except the 90 degree front but it must be realized that the degree of the diagonal cut could vary a good deal on Heer wraps with many having very little angle to the front.

My point is, as you kind of state, there was little SS armor prior to 1941-42 and if this officer was in fact assigned to a or the LAH armored recon company in 1940 this may well have been the only source (Heer) of wrap available

So this would be a very early Heer wrap ? Just a question, would it have been made in the period when the shoulder boards were sewn down ? I have seen early photos of SS in Black wraps also. But none piped with silver cord, I think that would be special tailor applied ? Also wouldn’t armored car recon wear golden yellow or copper brown piping. I am sorry, but I forget what year SS started to use colored piping.

[John Pic]

Also what about the piping, would early recon units have even worn colored piping ? If so wouldn’t it have been gold or copper brown ? I would think the maker would’ve just left Heer issued boards and added LAH cyphers . A couple of original tunics I have encountered have Heer boards on them it was no big deal to those officers back then. But then there is a possibility an SS officer used a recycled Heer tunic later in the war. Lots of questions.

[phild]

John, yes based on the auction description this one went into the Frankfurt Depot in 1940. It may or may not have had factory sewn down straps (EM) in 1940 as that was a transition year when they ceased doing that at the factory and we have no interior photos or much of any photos of this wrap. The premise would have been, IF this wrap is a real SS used example, it would have had Heer factory sewn tabs, breast eagle and perhaps straps originally as it was delivered to Heer Depot. From there it along with others would have been transferred to the SS clothing authorities for distribution to the handful of units with these troops. Obviously somewhere along the way, possibly before leaving the Frankfurt Depot, the Heer insignia was removed. IMO when inspecting this wrap the thread age, type and sewing of the insignia and the collar cord is the deal breaker along with any sign of tampering with the fabric on the breast eagle area and underside of collar to mask presence of Heer insignia. IMO if Heer insignia was on the wrap a few months there should be little indication now. If it was there for 5 years or 20 years there would be.

Only the SS officer’s wraps had the sliver twist collar piping so that was added when their wraps were “set up”.

Lastly we know as has been documented in several major works that the LAH received an allotment of Heer uniforms and personal combat equipment and even K98ks in either late 1938 or early 1939. This is noteworthy because it was the first time that the SS actually received NEW arms gear and uniforms out of Heer allotments. What I DONT know is those Heer uniforms (M36 tunics specifically) we’re transferred from a Heer Depot or directed from one of more factories making them for the Heer and delivered without any insignia or Heer Depot markings

[panzer1432]

Two things bother me, in 1984 Mr. Delich claims to have never seen another original SS officer wrap yet he was a premier collector back then well known and sought after for advice. Also that an 88 year old (in 1964) had a brother who brought it back from the war. My Uncle who served from D-Day was in his 30’s in 1964. This guys brother would have been too old to serve unless mom and dad had him really really late in life. It makes no sense. I saw my first LAH SS wrap at Steve Wolf’s Lakewood shop in 1986.All I had to do was walk in and I saw one.

I agree John. Many years ago, Myself and another collector had a collision with Mr. Delich over a SS officer tunic with provenance. The tunic proved to be real and has moved deep into the catacombs of a fine collection. Wish I still had it.

[panzer1432]

[QUOTE=John Pic;n11738004]

Yes, Yes and Yes

[panzer1432]

The recon battalions with an armored car type company was formed circa 1939 In LAH and maybe a year earlier in the VT and about the same time in the TK. The crews of the armored recon vehicles wore the black PZ uniforms and as best as I can tell from looking at maybe 50 photos of these troops from about 1938-1940 they wore Heer cut PZ uniforms. Single button trouser pocket flaps can clearly be made out, wraps are tougher in terms of saying for sure that the placket fly is straight or not but the collars are Heer shaped for sure and the lapels are shorter purely because they ALL wear the fifth button closed, Just like this example and unlike hardly ever seen on a heer used wrap in wear.
no example of a pre 1942 SS made wrap seems to be published. If one exists I’d like to see it. In CSP’s volume II a SS wrap claimed to be early is pictured (no interior photos seem to be ascribed to it however) and it has center rear seam, heer type collar and wide spaced lapel button holes so I don’t know what makes it SS except the 90 degree front but it must be realized that the degree of the diagonal cut could vary a good deal on Heer wraps with many having very little angle to the front.

My point is, as you kind of state, there was little SS armor prior to 1941-42 and if this officer was in fact assigned to a or the LAH armored recon company in 1940 this may well have been the only source (Heer) of wrap available

Yes, Yes and Yes

[John Pic]

John, yes based on the auction description this one went into the Frankfurt Depot in 1940. It may or may not have had factory sewn down straps (EM) in 1940 as that was a transition year when they ceased doing that at the factory and we have no interior photos or much of any photos of this wrap. The premise would have been, IF this wrap is a real SS used example, it would have had Heer factory sewn tabs, breast eagle and perhaps straps originally as it was delivered to Heer Depot. From there it along with others would have been transferred to the SS clothing authorities for distribution to the handful of units with these troops. Obviously somewhere along the way, possibly before leaving the Frankfurt Depot, the Heer insignia was removed. IMO when inspecting this wrap the thread age, type and sewing of the insignia and the collar cord is the deal breaker along with any sign of tampering with the fabric on the breast eagle area and underside of collar to mask presence of Heer insignia. IMO if Heer insignia was on the wrap a few months there should be little indication now. If it was there for 5 years or 20 years there would be.

Only the SS officer’s wraps had the sliver twist collar piping so that was added when their wraps were “set up”.

Lastly we know as has been documented in several major works that the LAH received an allotment of Heer uniforms and personal combat equipment and even K98ks in either late 1938 or early 1939. This is noteworthy because it was the first time that the SS actually received NEW arms gear and uniforms out of Heer allotments. What I DONT know is those Heer uniforms (M36 tunics specifically) we’re transferred from a Heer Depot or directed from one of more factories making them for the Heer and delivered without any insignia or Heer Depot markings

Thanks, appreciate your reply to my questions. I have seen various types of M36 tunics used by the SS . I even saw one that was a military grade field gray wool but had an RAD stamp inside. I have only seen and handled one real black Panzer wrap which is why you never see me give an opinion on them other than a real blatant reproduction.

[John Pic]

I agree John. Many years ago, Myself and another collector had a collision with Mr. Delich over a SS officer tunic with provenance. The tunic proved to be real and has moved deep into the catacombs of a fine collection. Wish I still had it.

I understand, Mr. Delich also trashed a very rare original tunic that I owned through a third party forum member. According to the person who bought it from me Mr Delich’s opinion was that the shoulder boards piped in pink Russia braid were fake. The person I sold it to returned it to me at the SOS and I honored the return. I displayed it and several long time SS collectors examined it and told me what I already knew, that those boards were 100% original and no one had yet faked them because they are a scarce type to find. The tunic is now in the collection of an advanced experienced SS collector. Afterwards I got a friend request on Facebook from a David Delich which I denied since I never met him in person.

[phild]

I understand, Mr. Delich also trashed a very rare original tunic that I owned through a third party forum member. According to the person who bought it from me Mr Delich’s opinion was that the shoulder boards piped in pink Russia braid were fake. The person I sold it to returned it to me at the SOS and I honored the return. I displayed it and several long time SS collectors examined it and told me what I already knew, that those boards were 100% original and no one had yet faked them because they are a scarce type to find. The tunic is now in the collection of an advanced experienced SS collector. Afterwards I got a friend request on Facebook from a David Delich which I denied since I never met him in person.

Everyone I’ve been around in this hobby has made what I consider mistakes and bad calls, chief among them is me. I could list many similar stories about first hand experiences I’ve had with with many of whom many on this forum have proclaimed to be preeminent collectors and authorities in different areas of the hobby. I was a bit miffed at the time and I don’t think any of these proclamations even involved any of my items, so I can understand your feelings. I have also specifically disagreed with Dave on a few things but I know a lot of things get mis-stated and sometimes we just see things wrong.

You wrote that you had only handled one real PZ wrap, that tells me you must have handled a dozen purported to be original to find the one that was! That’s about the ratio I see at least.
To go back to the other side of the situation on this wrap. I certainly believe any buyer should really critically examine it and that’s an understatement nor would I accept that letter or one from anyone else as proof it is an original set up SS officer’s wrap. On those points I agree with most everyone who has posted.

[John Pic]

Everyone I’ve been around in this hobby has made what I consider mistakes and bad calls, chief among them is me. I could list many similar stories about first hand experiences I’ve had with with many of whom many on this forum have proclaimed to be preeminent collectors and authorities in different areas of the hobby. I was a bit miffed at the time and I don’t think any of these proclamations even involved any of my items, so I can understand your feelings. I have also specifically disagreed with Dave on a few things but I know a lot of things get mis-stated and sometimes we just see things wrong.

You wrote that you had only handled one real PZ wrap, that tells me you must have handled a dozen purported to be original to find the one that was! That’s about the ratio I see at least.
To go back to the other side of the situation on this wrap. I certainly believe any buyer should really critically examine it and that’s an understatement nor would I accept that letter or one from anyone else as proof it is an original set up SS officer’s wrap. On those points I agree with most everyone who has posted.

Yes I agree with you, I was just pointing out that no one is an absolute expert. That Panzer wrap I looked at was an LAH enlisted man’s and was at Steve Wolf’s shop in Lakewood I considered buying it but at the time I was not thinking ahead I was seeking a classic SS Officer M36 style tunic. It literally was the only SS black wrapper I ever handled and inspected and as anyone who has visited Steve knows he is good at pointing out the details that should be considered.

[judas]

[QUOTE=John Pic;n11719269]How much does an authentic proven LAH panzer wrapper sell for on today’s market ? Ask yourself why such a low reserve bid price. Look at the item not the COA, that’s been a staple advice given by many experienced collectors over the years. COA’s are sales tools. Judge for yourself you are the one who will be keeping it until you tire of it. [/QUOTE

[John Pic]

are you even sure this is ok , geez it seems you need @00000 posts to be right . if not you know nothing . its not what you know its look i have 2000000 posts remarks
i am from africa i know it it all

It’s just an opinion Judas. I thought you were from New Zealand?

[judas]

It’s just an opinion Judas. I thought you were from New Zealand?

i am john from nz , is just a sarcasm ,,,,. your opinion you know i respect. so please it was not at you . but at the over view . but the topic helps us all to be aware john geez i see how it reads , its not at you ! its a over view . sorry john i was not looking at you , i am sorry in-public . whiskey getting me

i said it all wrong sorry john ,it was not what you had said . yep just read again , sorry john came out wrong

[John Pic]

i am john from nz , is just a sarcasm ,,,,. your opinion you know i respect. so please it was not at you . but at the over view . but the topic helps us all to be aware john geez i see how it reads , its not at you ! its a over view . sorry john i was not looking at you , i am sorry in-public . whiskey getting me

i said it all wrong sorry john ,it was not what you had said . yep just read again , sorry john came out wrong

No Problem my friend, they must have good whiskey down there !