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    #436
    Originally posted by NickG View Post
    I look at it this way...incident until,proven guilty...
    German WW2 until proven otherwise...that's my take on these.
    Definitely not post war until proven German...which some use as a view point but unable to articulate why that is...
    The above view is a very dangerous approach to collecting, in my humble opinion. Under that rationale, I have an M42 biker helmet painted in silver paint. It exists, so now the onus is on the collecting community to prove that it is not an untouched, pre-May 1945, German issue helmet? No, thanks. But hey, each person needs to set up his/her own collecting standards/parameters.

    With respect to the factory acceptance stamp, it is funny how people see what they want to see. Those that appear desperate to show that these helmets are real see these acceptance stamps as "proof positive" that they are the real deal. Really? If anything, these acceptance stamps indicate, at least to me, that there is something fishy or post-war about them. What other helmet came out of the factory in a non-feldgrau finish?!? Virtually all Algemeine SS helmets were painted black post-factory issue. Why? Because the SS units that needed black painted helmets were so small in number that it never made sense to get a batch of black helmets produced by the helmet manufacturers. Same with the Feldherrenhalle helmets, most (if not all) were LW helmets painted brown and re-decalled. So, now with respect to these helmets, we are supposed to believe that in the late stages of the war, when things were most desperate for the German war machine, the helmet manufacturers altered their manufacturing process to specifically produce tropical helmets for a limited number of SS units that could theoretically use them for a tropical deployment/operation?!?

    As for these type of helmets, maybe they are real, maybe they aren't. Although I collect WWII German combat helmets, I would personally never own one because even if real, they are terribly unattractive in my view. To each his own.
    Last edited by WalterB; 12-21-2014, 11:19 AM.
    When you go home
    Tell them for us and say
    For your tomorrow
    We gave our today

    --Inscription in the 5th Marine Division cemetery,
    Iwo Jima 1945

    Comment

      #437
      Originally posted by kevinpre45 View Post
      Hello
      I should have said in the past everyone beleaved the cock-a-mamy Egypt story. As far as the SS veterans story I would want to remain hidden myself in light of the world views on being SS. Off subject I had set up a Vietnam/Cold war display for the VFW/DAV. (Im a member of both) and some ya-hoo said my Saw(M-249) pouches were incorrect "them wernt issued till 1992 Bubba" . Anyway I was issued them in 1988! Point is everything in a textbook or on the history channel isn't always correct! Thanks for your openmind!
      Kevin
      Sounds good Kevin. I see what you are saying!

      Originally posted by Dennis S View Post
      BigSchuss ,I'm sure Nick is not making this up , but relayiing information being given to him. He is not sitting on a horde of them . Nick is a very enthusiastic collector who loves to study photos of uniformaligy . He is a real decent guy with his own brand of collecting . If it wasn't for Nick we wouldn't even be to talking about this subject to this extent.
      No, no. I agree. I said that in my post. I don't think Nick is making it up at all. I doubt the original of the story as told from Germany. It just seems like a little too coincidental…for me. But I have always been a hyper-skeptic, to a fault I know. I've enjoyed tis thread!

      Comment

        #438
        Originally posted by WalterB View Post
        The above view is a very dangerous approach to collecting, in my humble opinion. Under that rationale, I have an M42 biker helmet painted in silver paint. It exists, so now the onus is on the collecting community to prove that it is not an untouched, pre-May 1945, German issue helmet? No, thanks. But hey, each person needs to set up his/her own collecting standards/parameters.

        With respect to the factory acceptance stamp, it is funny how people see what they want to see. Those that appear desperate to show that these helmets are real see these acceptance stamps as "proof positive" that they are the real deal. Really? If anything, these acceptance stamps indicate, at least to me, that there is something fishy or post-war about them. What other helmet came out of the factory in a non-feldgrau finish?!? Virtually all Algemeine SS helmets were painted black post-factory issue. Why? Because the SS units that needed black painted helmets were so small in number that it never made sense to get a batch of black helmets produced by the helmet manufacturers. Same with the Feldherrenhalle helmets, most (if not all) were LW helmets painted brown and re-decalled. So, now with respect to these helmets, we are supposed to believe that in the late stages of the war, when things were most desperate for the German war machine, the helmet manufacturers altered their manufacturing process to specifically produce tropical helmets for a limited number of SS units that could theoretically use them for a tropical deployment/operation?!?

        As for these type of helmets, maybe they are real, maybe they aren't. Although I collect WWII German combat helmets, I would personally never own one because even if real, they are terribly unattractive in my view. To each his own.
        And while remaining open minded and eager to learn more…I agree with everything Walter writes…about the onus of proving thee things legit, to the dome stamps, to the appeal of these helmets as a German helmet collector.

        Comment

          #439
          Originally posted by NickG View Post
          Why do these exist with dome stamps in some?
          Nick, can I ask a question? Trying to follow the thread and the logic. Maybe I missed something. It seems to me that if these were a special contract that they would have all been produced war time in a single factory. I guess I would then expect them to either all have dome stamps, or none of them have stamps. Again, I do not know a lot about the process. But it seems to me that the fact that some have stamps doesn't make sense?

          Thanks in advance.

          Comment

            #440
            I wonder how long before we see on estand or a dealer site.
            Untouched /unissued sud front SS factory tan camo for sale. Has a good ring to it.Much better than German helmet all original ww2 parts found in storage 1980's in Czech republic.

            Comment

              #441
              Anything that is stamped can be done so postwar. On one example shown it appears that the stamp is overtop a scratch or some form of wear.

              A compelling case has been made for these. But as I have said, if these were made wartime, I do not believe it was for the exclusive domain of the SS.

              I can guarantee however, that these will now be offered by unscrupulous dealers and sellers as rare SS factory tropical helmets and have domestamps added to "verify" their authenticity.

              As Walter has said, aesthetically I do not find these pleasing and one would not enter my collection either, not that it means anything.

              I think the original point of this long winded but enjoyable thread has become somewhat lost however.

              It was if I am correct, to show these are not an Egyptian postwar contract. Perhaps that has been now shown to be the case?

              Otherwise it is circumstantial and I think it is really stretching supposition to call these wartime SS helmets.

              Comment

                #442
                Originally posted by PAB View Post
                I wonder how long before we see on estand or a dealer site.
                Untouched /unissued sud front SS factory tan camo for sale. Has a good ring to it.Much better than German helmet all original ww2 parts found in storage 1980's in Czech republic.


                We posted at the same time!

                Just wait till the fake decals and aging start being applied to them...they will be rarer to find then just like a nice minty no decal M42 is impossible to find now.

                Comment

                  #443
                  Originally posted by WalterB View Post
                  The above view is a very dangerous approach to collecting, in my humble opinion. Under that rationale, I have an M42 biker helmet painted in silver paint. It exists, so now the onus is on the collecting community to prove that it is not an untouched, pre-May 1945, German issue helmet? No, thanks. But hey, each person needs to set up his/her own collecting standards/parameters.

                  With respect to the factory acceptance stamp, it is funny how people see what they want to see. Those that appear desperate to show that these helmets are real see these acceptance stamps as "proof positive" that they are the real deal. Really? If anything, these acceptance stamps indicate, at least to me, that there is something fishy or post-war about them. What other helmet came out of the factory in a non-feldgrau finish?!? Virtually all Algemeine SS helmets were painted black post-factory issue. Why? Because the SS units that needed black painted helmets were so small in number that it never made sense to get a batch of black helmets produced by the helmet manufacturers. Same with the Feldherrenhalle helmets, most (if not all) were LW helmets painted brown and re-decalled. So, now with respect to these helmets, we are supposed to believe that in the late stages of the war, when things were most desperate for the German war machine, the helmet manufacturers altered their manufacturing process to specifically produce tropical helmets for a limited number of SS units that could theoretically use them for a tropical deployment/operation?!?
                  As for these type of helmets, maybe they are real, maybe they aren't. Although I collect WWII German combat helmets, I would personally never own one because even if real, they are terribly unattractive in my view. To each his own.
                  My statement is by no means my general modus operandi while collecting, (dangerous is actually not researching these things properly, believing hearsay! History is lost for ever!)
                  My remark has to do solely with these lids and their mystic (color, parts, dome stamps now being discovered even!) which I find intrigiug, a true mystery worth resolving if we can and based on the input and reader count, many are very interested in getting to the bottom of this.

                  Regarding the production statement it is actually the other way around...early in the war they did NOT have the capacity and recycled a lot...only LATER after Speer got involved and production was cranked up (with foreign occupied resources, forced labor etc.. the German war machine produced a lot more on a much larger scale later on...and much more sophisticated equipment even...(V2,V1)
                  Yes they were bombed and went underground but still put out 1400 ME262 jets by war's end...

                  Another example: in 1941 the Germans produced under 1900 units of ME-109's and in 1944 they produced over 14,000...!
                  Yes they used ersatz materials, made production short cuts, stamping instead of machined parts etc...
                  M42 sharp edge helmets etc...but the capacity never really suffered...it went UP big time! Only raw materials did...oil, aluminum, rubber...

                  Thinking German helmet production suffered also and they had capacity issues because it was late in the war is inaccurate! (and btw these lids were probably all produced in 1943 using ersatz vehicle primer paint in a war time RAL color).
                  They actually recycled (made due) MUCH more in the early war years (recycled Feldghernhalle-LW example) as production was not up to speed yet...This happened mid - late war! Flawed thinking...Sorry! Collecting is also knowing history. Turning these lids down because of esthetical reasons...fine..they don't look like the norm...Does a Krummlauf MP44 look like the norm? No! Is it ugly and unconventional, Yes!
                  but with street fighting it was considered...a theatre requirement, just like factory tan paint (These strange MP44's never really passed testing phase). I am just more open minded on possibilities than most text book "norm" collectors, that's all.
                  Last edited by NickG; 12-21-2014, 12:56 PM.

                  Comment

                    #444
                    Originally posted by DougB View Post
                    Anything that is stamped can be done so postwar. On one example shown it appears that the stamp is overtop a scratch or some form of wear.

                    A compelling case has been made for these. But as I have said, if these were made wartime, I do not believe it was for the exclusive domain of the SS.

                    I can guarantee however, that these will now be offered by unscrupulous dealers and sellers as rare SS factory tropical helmets and have domestamps added to "verify" their authenticity.

                    As Walter has said, aesthetically I do not find these pleasing and one would not enter my collection either, not that it means anything.

                    I think the original point of this long winded but enjoyable thread has become somewhat lost however.

                    It was if I am correct, to show these are not an Egyptian postwar contract. Perhaps that has been now shown to be the case?

                    Otherwise it is circumstantial and I think it is really stretching supposition to call these wartime SS helmets.
                    here si the second one with nice stamp and for sure it is not post war made..
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #445
                      Can you explain the stamp overtop the light patch of wear or scratch or whatever that is?

                      Anything that is stamped, embossed, painted, can be done so postwar.

                      I am not saying this is or is not an authentic stamp in this case. But stamps overtop anything but factory paint have to be viewed with suspicion, and in the case of this thread, has to past the most difficult of tests given these are being represented as exclusive SS factory made tropical helmets.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #446
                        22

                        22
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #447
                          Originally posted by PAB View Post
                          I wonder how long before we see on estand or a dealer site.
                          Untouched /unissued sud front SS factory tan camo for sale. Has a good ring to it.Much better than German helmet all original ww2 parts found in storage 1980's in Czech republic.
                          I wonder how many would have voted "no chance" WW2 German BEFORE this thread took the turn it did! We should start another poll!

                          Yes a direct SS connection might seem too far-fetched for most to fathom...
                          but lets say we do find proof that these are 100% war time...and we're on the right track...This far we're only hearing very weak arguments that they're not...esthetically unpleasing? dome stamps can be faked??? (in 1989?? on the other side of the iron curtain? I doubt these were added later...since everybody already knew (???) they were Egyptian, right? Rejected en masse!
                          Why alter an already tainted helmet? Not a chance... Egypt, export, civil use is dead...so what remains?

                          Anyway the next question to our puzzle is: made like this for whom war time?
                          Prague and the Protectorate was an SS state...run by the SS just like Holland, Poland etc...(France, Belgium...Heer control), and the helmets were found there along with Sahariana gear for an Erstatz und Ausbildungs unit no doubt.

                          The Polizei Division strength was
                          June, 1941 = 17,347
                          December, 1942 = 13,399
                          December, 1943 = 16,081
                          June, 1944 = 16,139
                          December, 1944 = 9,000
                          So 3000 helmets made in a certain color, intended for deployment in a region where this color makes sense, located in a depot for issuance of tropical kit, really doesn't sound like a big number and impossible, does it? (for civil use post war, an impossible unrealistic #, for an export order too small qty!)
                          Not sure how many were deployed to Greece, (occupation 43-44) before all being recalled for the battle of Budapest (Belgrade front in 1944)
                          So this stash could very well exist for the purpose of supplying just one unit, just THAT unit. Why not? My Czech contact and Polizei Division vet relative from Germany both are pretty firm on who these were intended for...and very few SS units were deployed (as a whole) in a Mediterranean theatre...passing through Prague... Polizei Division was deployed to Greece in 1943 ...The Vet picked up the helmet from that depot in Prague before deploying there (remember helmet pins 1943, helmets often M42, fits the need and time frame perfectly! or all just a BIG coincidence? (just connecting the dots here!)...
                          Maybe a stretch but at the same time not impossible!

                          Anyway it still remains an interesting discussion! Keep the thoughts/theories, whys, why nots, pros and cons coming!
                          Last edited by NickG; 12-21-2014, 02:03 PM.

                          Comment

                            #448
                            12

                            12
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #449
                              1

                              Of course I can explain...it is two yellow paintedd helmet as you can see on photo..what disturb you is just first paint between second one.....this is very strange I have only one helmet before, with this two paints colours and painted by black one and I try to remove it by acetone and first paint stay here but the second one gone with black one colour....
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #450
                                22

                                you can see little holes with missing first colour repainted with second colour....this helmet comes from many anothers yellow ones find...but only this one is like that.
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

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