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    #946
    Good post. In the mean time this kind of 1944 factory painted equipment (NOT an overpaint!),
    gets the immediate thumbs up without hesitation...

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...d.php?t=575208

    But CZ archive research would be the way to go...which member Bubble already stated that he was going to make an attempt after the holiday.
    The naysayers find this entire exercise a waist of time and the thread with possible connection irresponsible and the thread even should be closed they feel. Now ignoring all possibilities is of course irresponsible....
    I believe that ignoring and not researching the true history on these, (why they exist ) would be a shame a missed opportunity, Export is a lame lazy explanation.
    It can swing either way. I don't care...I just want something solid. Both sides are grasping straws...

    This should be properly investigated and the poll results so far indicate that there is a thirst for the truth. A final and definite determination. Both camps have not made any solid case but to me there are clear connectable dots for a war time need (just like this canister example described as an
    original late ordnance tan can without hesitation).

    Interesting how view points can vary...resulting in mud slinging...
    Anyway don't bring the puke green/pea green post war Czech items into the mix. It can get confusing...
    (I have been mixed 'em up also) but there is a clear distinction between these...RAL war "time capsules" some feel and manipulated post war CZ surplus!!!


    Perhaps true war time RAL left overs were supplemented with Czech PEA outside painted (Grau underneath) and Czech completely painted PEA ones to create a larger strategic reserve of helmets for cold war needs... making this such a complicated mix...all now deemed post war by some as it's an easy explanation. Painting it all with a broad brush so to speak...
    (Since it's a paint topic...)
    Last edited by NickG; 01-04-2015, 11:54 AM.

    Comment

      #947
      Originally posted by M35 View Post



      But I consider myself logical and common sensical and I think the Germans were too. It makes NO sense to me to refurb a bunch of helmets in post war eastern Europe when the norm at that time was to bury them or use them for scrap.

      Cheers,
      Terry

      I try to think with logic as well and my logic tells me that the Germans would have "factory" painted helmets in tan for the Africa campaign but from what I have seen they were not,yet most issue items were that colour (uniforms,hats etc) Then why not helmets?

      Have you seen a Veteran bringback tan helmet that was factory painted before these helmets hit the market?




      Glenn
      "A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"

      Comment

        #948
        A key issue for me is: Why would only the 4th SS Division receive these helmets if they were for general tropical issue?

        The 7th SS Divison fought in Yugoslavia from 1942 to 1945 and served in Serbia, Montengro, Bosnia and Croatia to include the Dalmatian coast. This terrain is very similar to that of northern Greece - where the 4th SS Division was deployed.

        The 16th SS Division was formed in Italy in October 1943 (based in part on the Sturmbrigade RFSS which was already serving in Corsica) and stayed in Italy until February 1945. Unlike the 7th and 24th SS Divisions, the 16th was a panzer-grenadier formation facing the western Allies. As such, it was well supplied with tropical equipment of all types but not apparently with this type of helmet - or at least none were bought back by Allied veterans. Certainly, with elements of the Division fighting at Anzio in the spring of 1944, one would have thought them a higher priority for kit than the 4th SS Division then serving in Greece.

        The elements of what became the 24th SS Division were fighting partisans in northen Italy from late 1943 until the end of the war.

        It would be difficult to imagine that the issue was one of transportation (i.e. that you had to go to Prague in 1943 to get these helmets as opposed to moving them with all other types of supplies about 600 kms to depots in northern Italy/Yugoslavia).

        Mike
        Last edited by Mike C; 01-04-2015, 12:17 PM.

        Comment

          #949
          Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post
          I try to think with logic as well and my logic tells me that the Germans would have "factory" painted helmets in tan for the Africa campaign but from what I have seen they were not,yet most issue items were that colour (uniforms,hats etc) Then why not helmets?

          Have you seen a Veteran bringback tan helmet that was factory painted before these helmets hit the market?




          Glenn
          I bet we will before the years out.

          Comment

            #950
            Originally posted by Mike C View Post
            A key issue for me is: Why would only the 4th SS Division receive these helmets if they were for tropical issue?


            Mike
            Perhap tropical is the wrong terminology......they were issued ( if the vet account is accurate) because they were available in Prague where a depot was which also carried hot weather kit...and where the Division went through to receive hot weather gear while returning from North Russia transitioning into Balkans-Greece. Issuance to include helmets that match that theatre (and uniform color) better..
            (if the vets recollection is accurate of course)

            Maybe he was mistaken and it's a wrong connection...heck maybe these helmets were intended to be used with Leibermuster camouflage ..Who knows? again something with a CZ connection...the Czechs adopted their version of Leibermuster after the war and all Leibermuster camo period pictures were taken in CZ.

            We really don't know...I realize I am all over the place now with my theories...but none of us were there. Maybe a much more simpler explanation is that these were refurb'd like that due to shortages and late war ordnance tan was the only color that was available (in the work shop) so made like that...and they realized it was suitable for certain theaters and that unit had the opportunity to receive these (at the right place at the right time) while other units that did not go through that depot and kept their standard lids...no clue really....but good points!
            That's why we need to find answers and not write these off "just because"... ( they don't look German)
            On that note does Leibermuster look war time German? nope it looks Warsaw Pact...experimenting...
            Last edited by NickG; 01-04-2015, 01:22 PM.

            Comment

              #951
              Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post
              Does it not seem logical that if the German military saw a need for tan painted steel helmets that it would have had helmets factory painted en masse in "tan" for the North African campaign? They produced everything else in those colours,M40/41 hats,tunics/trousers,sun helmets and so on.

              But yet,I have never seen (and I doubt anyone else has either) a Vet bringback helmet with tan paint that was "factory" sprayed on the inside and outside or even just on the outside with smooth untextured paint...All of them that I have seen were done "in theatre" using various methods of application as the soldier saw fit. (sprayed.hand painted etc)

              Glenn
              The original DAK were not issued stahlhelms when sent to Afrika. only the LW Flak & Herr Pioneers were issued steel helmets before deploying to Afrika. The steel helmets were thought unnecessary, so there was no prior preperation for painting steel helmets. Agree however that the helmets that were sent over later to Afrika were painted "in theatre."

              Comment

                #952
                [QUOTE=NickG;6743212all over the place now with my theories...but none of us were there. Maybe a much more simpler explanation is that these were refurb'd like that due to shortages and late war ordnance tan was the only color that was available (in the work shop) so made like that...and they realized it was suitable for certain theaters and that unit had the opportunity to receive these (at the right place at the right time) while other units that did not go through that depot and kept their standard lids...no clue really....but good points!
                That's why we need to find answers and not write these off "just because"... ( they don't look German)
                On that note does Leibermuster look war time German? nope it looks Warsaw Pact...experimenting...[/QUOTE]

                So you jump about gloating in your theorie like its a fact, when as we see you have nada proof. We need a vet bring back with provenance.

                These did come out of a Cz store and the guy at the top who sold them on in the late 70's or 80's?, would want the biggest bang for his buck. Yet the best he could come up with is the Egypt contract I suppose? No one knows and never will imo. Your flogging a dead horse.

                Comment

                  #953
                  Originally posted by bubble View Post
                  Yes, it's true. These tropical helmets in postwar Czechoslovakia was a huge amount. These tropical helmet (without nazi insignias) were after the war sold in every grocery store called "Včela" for a few krone/cents a piece. These tropical helmets come from a warehouse near the city Třebíč, but perhaps from many other depos in other cities (?). These helmets after the war, bought mainly scouts, tramps or children. I saw several photos and entire postwar scout groups, and all the children were wearing these helmets.
                  When I was a kid (70's) so many kids at school had these tropical helmets.

                  These german tropical helmets were after the war in CS, really many of thousands (or ten of thousands?) of pieces..


                  http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?...0026&mm=1&vd=2)
                  Thanks fo confirmation Bubble, would have loved to see all those kids running around in the sun wearing tropical helmets

                  Comment

                    #954
                    Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
                    only the LW Flak & Herr Pioneers were issued steel helmets before deploying to Afrika. Agree however that the helmets that were sent over later to Afrika were painted "in theatre."



                    That's right and you would think that helmets that were sent there would have been "factory" sprayed tan but they were not.







                    Glenn
                    "A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"

                    Comment

                      #955
                      Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post
                      That's right and you would think that helmets that were sent there would have been "factory" sprayed tan but they were not.

                      Glenn
                      DAK was rushed to Africa. ..to bail out the Italians...that had to make do with what they had...
                      What was available... Certain LW Flak units using Army uniforms with their insignia added...
                      its already been covered why not....different time frame different circumstances...
                      Later replacements also field camouflaging ...Tunesia 1943...true...
                      Look at it this was...Heer is like big government big waist...planning not always logical...
                      SS run like a private enterprise...more flexible, own production, own enterprises ..more like private sector approach with often not so voluntary work force...SS adopted camo clothing which the Heer
                      only much later introduced ...different patterns of course...SS more innovative...
                      But who knows? ( if there is even an SS link...)
                      Last edited by NickG; 01-04-2015, 03:44 PM.

                      Comment

                        #956
                        Nick,

                        There you go with that SS connection again,you give me a headache,it just never ends.


                        Do your research (the type I mentioned) and when you find something out contact me or one of the other Moderators and we will re-open this thread.


                        Until then,this one is closed.





                        Glenn
                        "A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"

                        Comment

                          #957
                          Here is a link to fake dome stamps that a respected member sent me. Near perfect copies of the originals,so I would not pay very much attention to the dome stamps in these helmets as a sign of them being "unquestionable originals".


                          http://www.warhats.com/ww2-german-he...ce-stamps.html







                          Glenn
                          "A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"

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