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    #586
    Originally posted by NickG View Post
    On the other hand the German helmet is the iconic symbol for German soldiers and probably not something the Israeli army would consider...not a chance......
    Nick, come on. Here you are trying to build a clear argument that these are SS and only SS helmets on nothing but the thinnest of circumstantial evidence and supposition.

    And yet you go on to say that there is NO chance that they could not have been Israeli ordered? Because they were the iconic symbol for German soldiers? really?

    You have yet to explain to us how a late war qvl helmet built long after the removal of the Polizei division from Greece with 1943 dated components gets into this mystery Czech arsenal of SS equipment and a helmet with a domestamp over 2 different coats of tan paint, one of which is identical to Warsaw Pact colors, is an SS helmet.

    We can speculate till the cows come home but to say that you can say, with certainty, that the Israeli government would buy planes and machine guns but not helmets is almost laughable. Turn it around, the oppressed and hunted now the victors using the weapons of their sworn enemy against them. One can easily make just a strong case for their use by the Israelis in that context.

    When will people start proving things here with facts.

    It has only gone from one collector theory "Egyptian contract helmets" to "SS contract helmets". All on supposition and very weak theory.

    I'm sorry but this thread has gone from interesting to the absurd now.

    Comment

      #587
      Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
      It is good point about Israeli use of German weapons from the CZ in 1948 and I agree that does pose a circumstantial connection.

      i.e. as much proof exists for the cancellation of an export order to Israel, Greece or Indochina as there does for Egypt,

      Chris
      and that is true too...An Israeli canceled contract connection is very circumstantial. The Israeli's used US and UK helmets, that's proven...and that makes most sense....not the Nazi look!
      Weapons however is a different matter...that is technology...That is what wins a war... The Germans had top of the line arms at war's end...even the 1934 designed MG34 was still very much an advanced well made design in the late 40's...A helmet is just a metal bucket...and why spend money of refurbishing these for the Israelis and having them rejected...That's a risk and a big waist if the delivery was "iffy" , not fully approved, not a firm deal...but perhaps the Israelis were expecting Czech helmets, a misunderstanding... ???
      but surely they would have been given samples for their approval you would think...
      We know the Egyptian canceled contract story is a misunderstanding (a later time span, a later contract) and the Egyptians settled with Czech M53 helmets which were tan overpainted (outside only) painted IN EGYPT...
      Israel is an interesting possibility but still hard to believe...helmets is not technology and the "German look" would be a deal killer for sure...

      Comment

        #588
        History

        Dougd
        Thanks for setting me straight! Lol
        Kevin

        Comment

          #589
          Originally posted by NickG View Post
          and that is true too...An Israeli canceled contract connection is very circumstantial. The Israeli's used US and UK helmets, that's proven...and that makes most sense....not the Nazi look!
          Weapons however is a different matter...that is technology...That is what wins a war... The Germans had top of the line arms at war's end...even the 1934 designed MG34 was still very much an advanced well made design in the late 40's...A helmet is just a metal bucket...and why spend money of refurbishing these for the Israelis and having them rejected...That's a risk and a big waist if the delivery was "iffy" , not fully approved, not a firm deal...but perhaps the Israelis were expecting Czech helmets, a misunderstanding... ???
          but surely they would have been given samples for their approval you would think...
          We know the Egyptian canceled contract story is a misunderstanding (a later time span, a later contract) and the Egyptians settled with Czech M53 helmets which were tan overpainted (outside only) painted IN EGYPT...
          Israel is an interesting possibility but still hard to believe...helmets is not technology and the "German look" would be a deal killer for sure...
          Picture worth a thousand words Nick

          Images of Israeli forces 1948-49,

          Chris
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #590
            Greek communist forces ("DSE Fighters") 1946-47 with WW2 German mortar and captured NVA MG's during the Vietnam war,

            The need to buy WW2 German weapons after WW2 was high but not one image of a German helmet being worn ???

            Chris
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #591
              This is a photo of the Czechoslovak RG = Revolutionary Guards tightly Mon May of 1945.

              Sorry, but the color of the helmet does not look like black, white or green .. This helmet looks really like yellow..


              Comment

                #592
                Originally posted by DougB View Post
                Nick, come on. Here you are trying to build a clear argument that these are SS and only SS helmets on nothing but the thinnest of circumstantial evidence and supposition.

                And yet you go on to say that there is NO chance that they could not have been Israeli ordered? Because they were the iconic symbol for German soldiers? really? YES REALLY

                You have yet to explain to us how a late war qvl helmet built long after the removal of the Polizei division from Greece with 1943 dated components gets into this mystery Czech arsenal of SS equipment and a helmet with a domestamp over 2 different coats of tan paint, one of which is identical to Warsaw Pact colors, is an SS helmet.

                We can speculate till the cows come home but to say that you can say, with certainty, that the Israeli government would buy planes and machine guns but not helmets is almost laughable. Turn it around, the oppressed and hunted now the victors using the weapons of their sworn enemy against them. One can easily make just a strong case for their use by the Israelis in that context.

                When will people start proving things here with facts.

                It has only gone from one collector theory "Egyptian contract helmets" to "SS contract helmets". All on supposition and very weak theory.

                I'm sorry but this thread has gone from interesting to the absurd now.
                We're just investigating ALL possibilities...sorry some have a more open mind than others...I don't believe late war marked QVL were found totally refurbished in this RAL DUnkel gelb color but maybe I missed something.
                To my knowledge most are actually ET's and some HKP,CKL,NS, SE,QVS marked...

                ET & Ckl - Eisenhuttenwerk, Thale YES

                Q - Quist, Esslingen

                EF - Emaillerwerk AG, Fulda YES

                NS - Vereinigte Deutsche Nickelwerke, Schwerte YES

                SE & HKP - Sachsische Emaillerwerk, Lauter YES

                Why this large variety, because they are rebuilds and for the most part receiving 1943 parts which still leads me to believe a refurb happened in 1943...
                Some do have much earlier chin straps but many were found with leather rot on the chin straps (damp storage) so those were replace (one example in the thread has a 1941 chin strap) or most sold actually lacking chin straps or czech ones added...and liners RBNr types...

                If Egyptian or Israeli, why not 1944 or 1945 parts? Can somebody check theirs?

                Comment

                  #593
                  "At the time of the formation of the paratrooper unit, the IDF acquired much of its initial equipment from British surplus stocks - much of which was actually defective or requiring assembly and part-replacement. Similar to the concept of "Hitelmacher" hats, the Israelis also coined a phrase for these British paratrooper helmets - these were called "French helmets": although the initial training courses of Israeli paratroopers took place in Czechoslovakia in 1948"

                  Apparently only theories that move these helmets closer to SS helmets are allowed on this thread?

                  All other questions are either deflected or are ignored?

                  Please explain qvl helmets with 43 dated components and dome stamps over Warsaw Pact color paint and another tan color of paint. Or is that going to be ignored?

                  Isrealies wearing "Nazi helmets"...No way!!!! Great insight guys. I'm now convinced with that rationale and excellent discussion that there is No Way the Israeli;s would wear a German helmet. Ever.

                  They'd rather get their heads blown to pieces and lose the 1948 war than wear German equipment to go with their German planes and German swastika stamped guns.

                  It was a matter of principle you know....

                  This is getting really ridiculous now Nick. You cant have it all one way and the problem with this discussion is you want to have a desired outcome and will accept nothing less than these being German helmets produced by Germany for Germany.

                  They cannot be a postwar contract helmet. If you want a discussion you guys who feel these are German (and SS for that matter) need to take in all counts and plausible theories, not just your own.

                  I was learning a lot here but the last 15 pages have shown there is clearly an agenda here.

                  Comment

                    #594
                    Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
                    Greek communist forces ("DSE Fighters") 1946-47 with WW2 German mortar and captured NVA MG's during the Vietnam war,

                    The need to buy WW2 German weapons after WW2 was high but not one image of a German helmet being worn ???

                    Chris
                    Because Chris maybe they used other helmets....

                    Your rationale makes no sense and serves no point.

                    Comment

                      #595
                      Originally posted by bubble View Post
                      This is a photo of the Czechoslovak RG = Revolutionary Guards tightly Mon May of 1945.

                      Sorry, but the color of the helmet does not look like black, white or green .. This helmet looks really like yellow..


                      And the interiors look not yellow.

                      Comment

                        #596
                        Originally posted by bubble View Post
                        This is a photo of the Czechoslovak RG = Revolutionary Guards tightly Mon May of 1945.

                        Sorry, but the color of the helmet does not look like black, white or green .. This helmet looks really like yellow..


                        Awesome war time picture of such light colored helmets! They even have German HBT tunics and LW buckles, K98's
                        Some might claim the skirts look dark...so automatic believe these are overpaints...not wanting to believe in this war time possibility PERIOD...
                        but look at this H&C image for comparison!
                        Last edited by NickG; 12-28-2014, 01:50 PM.

                        Comment

                          #597
                          Originally posted by NickG View Post
                          We're just investigating ALL possibilities...sorry some have a more open mind than others...
                          Nick your mind seems to be geared towards only these being German made for Germany and probably for the SS.

                          Your don't appear to be open to even the discussion these were Israeli, or other post war contract helmet, Czech?

                          Like you said, examine all possibilities. That is where this thread has been co-opted.

                          Comment

                            #598
                            Originally posted by NickG View Post
                            Awesome war time picture of such light colored helmets! They even have German HBT tunics and LW buckles, K98's
                            Some might claim the skirts look dark...so overpaints...but look at this H&C image for comparison!
                            The skirts are dark Nick. They are not yellow.

                            This is no longer a discussion based on open ended dialogue. When your calling dark interiors yellow, I give up.

                            Comment

                              #599
                              Originally posted by DougB View Post
                              The skirts are dark Nick. They are not yellow.
                              Yes just as dark as these skirts! It's called shade....Yes give up!
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #600
                                More dark interiors... Black and white period pictures of course makes it look even more black...
                                This is like chess...Your move!
                                I am not saying 100% SS, I am not saying 100% NOT Israeli...
                                I just have an OPEN mind!

                                but do show me a post 1943 "QVL" coded helmet in Dunkelgelb.,...I apparently missed it! That would be puzzling
                                and would make a 1943 refurbishment program unrealistic. I agree and I want to learn!!
                                A QVL in Dunkelgelb would be an overpaint and that would prove that this RAL color was used for helmets but not part of the Prague
                                refurbishment stash!
                                The codes I know about are in post #592.

                                I would also like to know the codes on the M42 helmets too and the sequence numbers...if these are indeed factory ground up built
                                helmets...(no refurbishing marks, no sanding etc.. but with dome stamps on some if indeed authentic)
                                Factory ground up built helmets for Israel (or Egypt) would be an impossibility!Refurbs yes, BUT show me 1944 and 1945 helmet parts used
                                if indeed slapped together for a foreign military in the late 40's...I have NOT seen that!! (but still have an OPEN mind on ALL possibilities!!!)
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by NickG; 12-28-2014, 02:10 PM.

                                Comment

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