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**kevinpre45** · 12-09-2014, 05:56 PM

Helmet Numbers

Hello
First of several I will post.
M-35
ET-66
Size 59 liner
LN 3635
Liner super tight don't want to bend.late war type rounded chinstrap bales.
Hope that helps.
BTW its tan inside and out
Kevin

**helmet guy** · 12-09-2014, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Dennis J View Post

I remember when these helmets came out in late 80's and 90's....every dealer at every gun show had at least 10 of them for sale.I bought 2 of the German mod 42 and 2 of the Italian ones that came from the same place as these helmets came from.Every helmet collector that I knew back then here in the USA and overseas agreed that these were post war made up with orig liners that had German marked bands that were put together post war....jmo.Over the years I have seen them being passed off as orig. late war DAK..... but this is not true.

Dennis J

I remember seeing one or two of these at a show in the early 90's...I believe a max show in Baltimore if my memory serves me correctly. The ones I saw at that time were in mint condition with only storage wear and the seller claimed that they came from a 'warehouse ' and never issued. Everyone who examined them agreed that they were made from period parts but probably post war painted and assembled. No one bought them the day I was there. No one thought they were really DAK, but some asked if they could have been for the southern Europe theater...others doubted that too...including myself. They looked doubtful them and look even more doubtful today.

**Mr. Hollywood** · 12-09-2014, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Interesting, because I was shown polaroid photos of the find when the helmets were found in the CZ and they were already assembled 100%. Thus complete helmets sitting in storage in the CZ.

The examples on the bottom of the piles were all rusty as NickG has already alluded to.

I was also told the story you have presented from the USA but that is all it is, one of the stories that floated around the USA at the time in the 1980's to try an explain them when really no one knew why these helmets existed or why.

When you stop and think about it, if they assembled the helmets to send to the Max in the USA from parts. Then why were the helmets on the bottom assembled with rusty shells, corroded liner bands and dried out leather when on the other helmets on the top and middle of the piles were assembled with mint helmet shells, mint liner bands and mint leather. Seems like a lot of extra work and cost making sure the condition of all the component parts matched one another. Why not just sell them as parts at the time ?

Why use a shade of German sand/ brown/ tan "RAL 7028" paint that is not seen on an CZ made items before WW2 or made after WW2 but it is seen on items made during WW2

What is the name of this original "exporter" and these "well known" dealers ? because I suspect you mean one of the possible importers into the USA.

Some were exported fron the CZ to the Max show in the 1980's but not as parts and there was more than one USA importer. Some importers sold them else where or by other means. They imported complete helmets as found already assembled in the CZ warehouse/ storage facility.

The story presented by one importer at the time is nothing more than folklore to try and explain the unexplained and for better or worse this debate is not over,

Chris

p.s. any response from Kelly Hicks in regard to this matter ?

Couple points to address:

* the helmets were not assembled to take to the MAX. They were assembled after the war by the Czhk government from remaining stock.

* The seller of these helmets bought them in bulk in the late 70's and brought them to the 1980 MAX show to sell to dealers. When he bought them from Czhek government he was told they were war surplus that was used by the Czhek soldiers/ police after the war, and that they were assembled post war.

So the fact that there are photos of them in a werehouse would be fine. It means that when the photo was taken they were assembled and kept in storage for a long period before being liquidated decades later.

This in no way contradicts any "story": as the original "story" comes from the person who bought them in bulk directly from the Czhek government.

When he sold them across the US he simply relayed the facts as he had them, which were facts provided to him at the time of sale.

Simple as can be.

I dont have any idea of the name of the exporter, or importer as I was not at the MAX show at that time. The dealers I spoke to are well known and I dont feel that putting their name out there without consent is appropriate. You may believe what you choose as it makes no difference to me personally.

My understanding is that there was a single US buyer who sold bulk inventory to others, who then in turn sold them across the US. I bring up the MAX show because one of the dealers I spoke with was there, and was offered these helmets in mass, and was given the history first hand from the importer.

At the end of the day these helmets have never been accepted as wartime original because they are not. The older collectors of this hobby were not simply signing off on what they were told at that time. It was researched by many and that was the final determination. No different than today. Simply because the newer generation of collectors (myself included who were not collecting in 1980) are challenging the notion in hopes that these are SS helmets doesnt change the fact that they are not.

Ask yourself a very simple question....................................any retailer of German militaria from the mid 1960's to today would love to have a storage of SS helmets to sell. Why wouldnt AT THAT TIME in the 80's a seller not disclose that they were potentially SS and jack the price up. Of course they would if there was even the most slim possibility. We all can agree there. Also they were not even toted as tropical because it was plain as day then, as today that they are not wartime tropical.

Collectors today like to think that pre internet days were the days of the cave man and that info was "limited". THis could not be furthur from the truth. It was during this time that the majority of collecting knowledge was obtained, and the basis of what we use today. There were forgers then as today. Stop fooling yourselves, our generation of collector are not superior, nor are we anymore informed than those of the likes of Bill Shea, or Kelly Hicks. Remember its their books we read.

At the end of the day no matter what the logic in favor of these helmets comes to in the minds of those comfortable with them, the collecting community as a whole will never accept them as original wartime pieces of history.

I know this post sounds like I am laying out facts that "I know to be correct"/ they are not. I am simply relaying info from those who legit were there, and are very respected dealers and collectors in our hobby today. I believe them as they are the first who would love these helmets to be SS so they could buy them cheap, and sell em high! Plus I dont discount their first hand knowledge as they were there at that show, at that time/ date.

Combined with my own 20plus years of collecting and ownership of various torpical helmets, and a couple of these as well I just not buying it.

No Mr. Hicks has not replied yet.

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 06:10 PM

Received this set of images from a German collector today....who is following this thread with great interest!
He picked up this LW camo helmet half a decade ago or so...
It is clearly painted in DunkelGelb. Is it an overpaint? I don't see any blue....nor grainy texture, nor brush strokes... or was it made like this??? (see dome area!!!)
Note also remnants of LW decal too...

Maybe it will help?

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 06:11 PM

more...7028 RAL paint!

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 06:12 PM

Luftwaffe?
or is it from this Czech hoard (from the bottom of the pile and became rusty? and the damaged) ....so LW eagle was added post war?
Who would bother doing that?
Makes you wonder!
HG Division helmets supply? (like the Youtube clip from 1943 was showing in post 276)?

Luftwaffe also had a big depot in Prague where lots of LW tropical clothing originated!

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 06:40 PM

Now compare with a "Czech" one from the same owner! ....or both Czech batch????

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 06:42 PM

Skirt comparison...exact same RAL war time GrunGelb vehicle paint...
I have asked for close up images of the damaged LW eagle decal.. maybe a smoking gun? maybe a false alarm? (faked?)

Attached Files

**kevinpre45** · 12-09-2014, 06:50 PM

Another number

Hello

M-42
HKP-62
520?(bad stamp) both on rear of helmet
size 55
liner tight
different tan slightly more greenish and not so flat
Hope that helps
Kevin
love this one!

**kevinpre45** · 12-09-2014, 06:54 PM

One more

Hello

M-35
SE66
LN 4394
Size 59
tight liner
flat tan identical paint as the first one I listed
Kevin
PS like I said I have about 20 of these and whatever they are I think
there Awesome! Only paid 50 a pop! or should I say a pot?

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 07:44 PM

I will try to get much better pictures posted tomorrow...
Looks like an overpaint...(wing tips covered... So not a flaking decal???
but more to follow!
If it turns out to be just an overpaint, still interesting to show as the color is a Czech match and if its a war time overpaint
that means the paint color is legit WW2 German! A clue!
and very interesting is the fact that the dome is also painted like this! Puzzling isn't it?

Attached Files

**NickG** · 12-09-2014, 10:04 PM

Wow the silence is deafening! (and I know its been looked at...)
It's been several hours since I posted this LW helmet in RAL GrunGelb...
Everybody (including the helmet gods) now collectively scratching their heads on this one?

I guess I threw a major curve ball with this example!
The post war refurbishment "story" (with post war Czech Epoxy paint) now starting to lose some credibility perhaps?
or?
If it's an overpaint we're comparing apples to pears, but the dome and skirts are in that RAL color, it got the full treatment!
(just like the Czech Depot queens...) What gives... Educate me on this one!

**jerryrehr** · 12-09-2014, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Wow the silence is deafening! (and I know its been looked at...)
It's been several hours since I posted this LW helmet in RAL GrunGelb...
Everybody (including the helmet gods) now collectively scratching their heads on this one?

I guess I threw a major curve ball with this example!
The post war refurbishment "story" (with post war Czech Epoxy paint) now starting to lose some credibility perhaps?
or?
If it's an overpaint we're comparing apples to pears, but the dome and skirts are in that RAL color, it got the full treatment!
(just like the Czech Depot queens...) What gives... Educate me on this one!

Nah.....IMO the dialog and misdirection has just got to be too much sorry.
Jerry

**NickG** · 12-10-2014, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by jerryrehr View Post

Nah.....IMO the dialog and misdirection has just got to be too much sorry.
Jerry

Ok care to elaborate?
I don't hang out much in the helmet section and own only a dozen or so.... Non of which are camo...
The LW helmet was sent to me by another member from Germany who can not post. He owns both helmets shown
and wanted these viewed for commenting through me...That's not misdirecting, that's participating.

So what is the verdict on the LW example ? PLEASE! I am hearing silence... A Czech POS? The real McCoy (overpaint) ?
What's with the with fully painted dome ? Or what? Answers please!
We are here to learn and if some think its a waist of time, rehashing stuff that cant be proven, just simply ignore this thread.
Just get off the bus...Easy!
This is not a mandatory ride!

Here's some more food for thought on these controversial lids, (as many claim 100% original parts but "probably post war painted and assembled"...). They perhaps had an opinion to err on the side of safety as they just could not be sure on these discovered lids with that strange looking ersatz RAL vehicle primer... and also thousands of genuine german helmets all of a sudden flooding the market could hurt the value of german helmets in general...Think about that scenario! So sell them, market them as post war rebuilds, so not to hurt the investments on more conventionally made helmets and that version of the explanation stuck for decades...passed on! These were written off...
The story stuck! Helmets tainted. Why not re-investigate with the help of the web global community to get something more definite, solid answers (good or bad) established ! What's the harm in doing that? So far I have not heard anything totally convincing from the naysayers other than weird finnish, thin, no texture...well its vehicle primer...Ersatz means make due with what you have like the fake coffee in WW2.
The Germans were drinking "ersatz" coffee, made of grains instead of beans and ersatz bread made with potatoes...all kind of short cuts...wooden pulp in wool uniforms, so also (to us modern day collectors) perhaps weird looking paint texture!
"Ersatz" means substitute of course...

**NickG** · 12-10-2014, 02:06 AM

OK I just got the detailed pictures of the LW helmet in Dunkelgelb from Germany 5 minutes ago.
It is 100% a repaint, with Luft blue peaking through the surface!
That is crystal clear now, but still interesting as it is the same paint as the Czech ones ! (to me at least)

Attached Files

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