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**billbert** · 02-06-2007, 04:55 PM

Bryon,
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

!!!!Knowledge is king no doubt..A man with a valid opinion whom neither leads nor follows the lemmings..but as you intimated ...somedays it is "lemming season" no limit..
MORE fun than coins and stamps!! Billbert

They werent aiming the pistols at you..they were checking the maker marks!!

**djpool** · 02-06-2007, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

Well I received my version of this hat today and it certainly looks believeable to me. However there are a few things I find a bit odd in it's manufacture,and I think some of these same observations have already been stated.

1) Why is the top button hole always sewn in the exact same place on the upper front flap running into the 1 line of reinforcement stitching? One could say that there was not enough room on the front flap to place them elsewhere I suppose as it is narrow. Have never seen this before on any other officers M43.

2) It appears that the part of the sweatband that attaches to the hat was first machine sewn around the entire perimeter of the band with brown thread before being applied to the interior and then hand sewn through the loops of the brown thread with black thread (looks to be the same thread used to apply the insignia) Why not just machine sew the sweatband directly to the cap? seems like an unnecessary step but I suppose could have been done.

3) Why are these hats always found in human sizes,57's 58's etc. Why not anything smaller like the Statni W-SS hats (54's etc)

4) The crown piping I do find odd and the interior white cord the bullion wire is sewn too in a straight line would easily deteriorate and swell if it got wet (I suspect) thus destroying the bullion wire in the process (the white cord seems to be coming through in various places on this piping)

Basketweave bullion piping would make more sense as it is more strong and durable.

5) These hats look factory mass produced to me which again I find odd. I was always of the thought that officers M43's (at least produced by the Germans)were never mass factory produced but rather private purchase hats.(I know some will argue this) If factory produced en masse,officer upgraded hats from factory issue hats would be much less common than they are.

On this particular hat the interior is constructed from 2 different types of material,a ribbed rayon for the crown (which I have seen similar in visored hats) and a cotton material. The sweatband has stained this cotton material and if this sweatband was removed it would appear to look like sweat staining.

The wear on this hat looks natural to me, one large moth bite on the front visor and some areas of grazing on the exterior,the interior shows a few pulls in the ribbed rayon lining. The sweatband has deteriorated and has torn in a few areas.

All this being said I feel (and so does my gut feeling) that these hats are most probably original and probably Foreign manufacture (hence all the enomilies) and not German manufacture (I like the looks of the insignia as well) but I am not 100% convinced (yet).

Nice to have one as an example anyway.
Glenn

Glenn,

These hats are quite intriguing and beautifully done. The stitch work is awesome. Gerald mentioned double stitching in places, on mine there are 4-5 rows of stitching in places .
The method of attaching the sweatband is very complicated affair IMO. I do have a private purchase M43 that shows a similar method of attaching the liner. The big difference is its also machine sewn into the body of the cap. Also has a piece of cloth between the band and the inner liner. The rest of the subject M43 has been heavily reinforced with stitching at select places. Its certainly not doing to fall apart.The sweatband is made almost on a manner that it can be removed/cut away without affecting the hat. The full cloth liner is not attached (few light stitches] to the sweatband, so it wouldn't be damaged (unlike my private purchase hat). Actually fairly ingenious. Heres a pic of my Private purchase sweatband.

Attached Files

LINING STITCH.jpg (48.1 KB, 324 views)

**djpool** · 02-06-2007, 06:21 PM

I also find this stitch intriguing. Its on the scalloped portion of the hat. Viewed from the front it looks like a double row of stitching.Looks completely different on the reverse.Is there a tailor in the house? Whats the purpose? Any special machine needed?

Attached Files

M43 STITCHES.jpg (62.4 KB, 326 views)

**francis006** · 02-07-2007, 01:42 AM

Jim , these kinds of stiching (like small chains) exist on some M43's

**djpool** · 02-07-2007, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by francis006 View Post

Jim , these kinds of stiching (like small chains) exist on some M43's

Francis,

Your absolutely correct. I checked a few of my other M43s and this type stitch was present. Not in the same location. In fact as far as the stitching goes it appears perfectly consistent with wartime examples.

I wonder if the reproductions capture the same small details.

WR Jim

**Glenn McInnes** · 02-09-2007, 07:10 AM

I spoke with Bill Shea the other day about these hat's and this is what he told me.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

They are absolutely,without any shadow of a doubt 100% original.

I have purchased 2 of these indirectly from Veterans.

1) I purchased one from a professor who purchased it direct from the Veteran over 30 years ago.

2) One I purchased from a picker in N.J who purchased it from an Estate auction with a pile of other original items, all for under $25.

I would be very comfortable with one of these.

Bill

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

Just thought I would share his comments.

Glenn

**B. N. Singer** · 02-09-2007, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

I spoke with Bill Shea the other day about these hat's and this is what he told me.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

They are absolutely,without any shadow of a doubt 100% original.

I have purchased 2 of these indirectly from Veterans.

1) I purchased one from a professor who purchased it direct from the Veteran over 30 years ago.

2) One I purchased from a picker in N.J who purchased it from an Estate auction with a pile of other original items, all for under $25.

I would be very comfortable with one of these.

Bill

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

Just thought I would share his comments.

Glenn

Well Glenn,

I would think you are even happier with your new hat now (after speaking with Bill Shea).

Just a word from the sole doubter, watch over the next several months (years) at various web sites and military shows as to how many of this type of officers hat are available (so often with an "attributed story" such as found in the garbage or something "convincingly" similar), both new and used condition. ALL the same (for the most part); interestingly peculiar is that.

Naturally, that tells you I remain unconvinced about these examples, which are only accepted (due to their "uniqueness of materials" from a standard German made item), if explained to be "foreign made."

Go on Bill (Billbert) laugh away. Someone presented with "indisputable evidence" and yet, who will not believe, deserves it and more!

B. N. Singer

**Glenn McInnes** · 02-09-2007, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by B. N. Singer View Post

Well Glenn,

I would think you are even happier with your new hat now (after speaking with Bill Shea).

B. N. Singer

No not really Bryon, I am just giving it the benefit of the doubt,that's all. I still have some issues with them myself.

Maybe someday some indisputable truth or proof (other than Vet stories or capture papers) will come out that these hat's were in fact manufactured pre 1945.

Glenn

**billbert** · 02-09-2007, 10:10 AM

Bryon
I wasnt laughing at you..I was laughing at your comment about everyone pointing the pistols at 20 paces at you..Billbert

**B. N. Singer** · 02-09-2007, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by billbert View Post

Bryon
I wasnt laughing at you..I was laughing at your comment about everyone pointing the pistols at 20 paces at you..Billbert

Well Bill, what do I possibly have to say at this juncture? How about, does anyone know where I can buy one of these, my collection has suffered without one for too long??!!!

B. N. Singer

**billbert** · 02-09-2007, 11:00 AM

What size did you need??Billbert

**B. N. Singer** · 02-09-2007, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by billbert View Post

What size did you need??Billbert

After review of this thread, I think people woud advise that you better make it a "pin head" (but of course from what I have seen, ALL of these types, are in a wearable size; lucky for us that the vets that brought them back were so "discriminating")

B. N. Singer

**John Huff** · 02-09-2007, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

Maybe someday some indisputable truth or proof (other than Vet stories or capture papers) will come out that these hat's were in fact manufactured pre 1945.

Glenn

How much more indisputable can it get than vet purchase with capture papers?

**Glenn McInnes** · 02-09-2007, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by John Huff View Post

How much more indisputable can it get than vet purchase with capture papers?

Well, I would think a nice clear period photo showing a German officer wearing one.

Glenn

**billbert** · 02-09-2007, 02:52 PM

I thought I had this on the ropes back at post 124...Oh Well!!Billbert

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