Officers Wool M43 Cap

[djpool]

collage

[djpool]

the bodies

[Glenn McInnes]

That's a tough one Jim,it could very well be one like this.

The blue eagle compares well with the Hritz example as well.




Glenn

[djpool]

That's a tough one Jim,it could very well be one like this.

The blue eagle compares well with the Hritz example as well.

Glenn

Glenn,

I know the differences between your bevo example and the wool ones appear obvious, in wartime pics it might be very difficult. Just compare the two examples and imagine them taken from a distance. Jim

[djpool]

bodies

[djpool]

collage

[John Huff]

Those two eagles are definitely not the same...

[B. N. Singer]

If these hats were reproduced then why not put a more believable insignia on them?

Most of the reproduction hats I have seen have had accepted original insignia applied.
Glenn

I think there was also one example seen with a half leather sweat band as well.

Why were all the examples unissued, unworn when they first appeared decades ago and now a majority are worn, some to the point of being "abused" (at least the interiors)?

And IMHO, some basic fundamentals are being ignored, which I will NOT elaborate on. (Yes, yes, scold me if you like!)

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

Hi Bryon,


I guess some could argue that if the hats were found unissued in a factory,and being that these hats were not "textbook" perhaps the wear was done intentionally post war to some of them by people selling them (I have seen that done to unissued items before) to make them look more believable.(same could be said of course if they were post war manufactured)



I do find it a bit odd that the top button hole is always running into the bottom stitch line on the front flap.




Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Hi Bryon,


I guess some could argue that if the hats were found unissued in a factory,and being that these hats were not "textbook" perhaps the wear was done intentionally post war to some of them by people selling them (I have seen that done to unissued items before) to make them look more believable.(same could be said of course if they were post war manufactured)



I do find it a bit odd that the top button hole is always running into the bottom stitch line on the front flap.




Glenn

Glenn, IMHO I would call that reasoning (all be it a possibility) a far stretch in my book of collecting this stuff. And yet, it seems as though this tendency was not manifest in the Dachau Pz M43 hats, that many people did not believe when they were first found!

Yes, an interesting observation about the buton hole.

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

What is the time line when the officers M43's came out and the W-SS M43's? (I can't remember)


At one time it was accepted to uncover a painted over decal on say a camo helmet but not anymore.This being said I don't think anyone would induce wear to an original,unissued item anymore.





Glenn

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

The cap in post 118 is mine. I bought it because I genuinely believed it is original. I still do, though I would concur that my thought was that it was foreign manufactured, as if varies quite a bit from a "textbook" German manufactured einheitsfeldm******252;tze. Some observations I would like to make-

1.if faked 20-30 years ago, why have fakers digressed in their believability? The fakes of the 80s-2000 are easily detectable with a trained eye and the materials used are give-aways, as are some good construction aspects that this cap has.
2.The cardboard inner visor on mine is done correctly and even has an edge nap wear pattern that is authentic
3.the lining on mine is dry rotted
4.the thread has lost it's color in some spots on the cap
5.The full sweatband was sewn in, but in the front area, it was machine sewn with a complicated criss-cross or basketweave stitch that is usually seen on originals and this part was done with thread 75% only seen on German WW2 originals and 99.9% not on fakes (you'll have to email for this one)
6.The inner 1 to 1.5cm wide headband stiffener along the bottom edge of the cap is not there, as normally on German made examples.
7.Thinner thread used around the base of the cap is "doubled-up"
8.my cockade is red, not washed out pink
9.mine has moth holes/ tracking in the cap and mothing on the insignia (a large hole) If someone wanted to age it, probably pretty stupid to put one right on front of the insignia
10.pull tabs-only seen on fakes in the last 10-15 years at the most
11.the way the cap "sits" or "lays" is like originals. Better than any fake I have seen
12.Nap wear is real on them, not faked (IMHO)

None of these are to persuade either way, nor can they determine originality conclusively, these are just my observations. Also wanted to note for Mr. Singer (who's opinion I regard very highly-only because 99.99% of the time, it mirrors mine) The second set of stitching on the top of the flap that is usually for bias, could be to strengthen it, as this part would go around your chin if you wore the flaps down in inclimate weather. Just a thought.
I believe the cap, but if I am proved wrong, no problem. I would rather know the truth anyway. If fake, best I have ever seen. It would have fooled my "gut", which is very hard to do.

Gerard

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Just one other question. The piping, is of course, a different weave than normally seen. Can anyone find another type of item with this piping, from any country, any time period?


Gerard

[Glenn McInnes]

Some very good observations Gerard,thanks for sharing them.


I have also seen the double stitch line used on original M43 hats as well when no bias material was used. For reinforcement I agree.




Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Hi Gerard,

Thank you for your kind words and on behalf of the other forum members thanks for taking the time to make your excellent, detailed critique of these hats.

1.if faked 20-30 years ago, why have fakers digressed in their believability? The fakes of the 80s-2000 are easily detectable with a trained eye and the materials used are give-aways, as are some good construction aspects that this cap has.
Response: Agreed, normally this is the case.

2.The cardboard inner visor on mine is done correctly and even has an edge nap wear pattern that is authentic
Response: Agreed, in fact many aspects of these conform quite convincingly.

3.the lining on mine is dry rotted
Response: Yes, most are.

4.the thread has lost it's color in some spots on the cap
Response: inconclusive for me.

5.The full sweatband was sewn in, but in the front area, it was machine sewn with a complicated criss-cross or basketweave stitch that is usually seen on originals and this part was done with thread 75% only seen on German WW2 originals and 99.9% not on fakes (you'll have to email for this one)
Response: Is this machined to the hat itself or is this stitching only on the front portion of the leather sweatband and then hand sewn to the hat?

6.The inner 1 to 1.5cm wide headband stiffener along the bottom edge of the cap is not there, as normally on German made examples.
Response: this feature I think is Never present when if there is a full sweatband. And full sweatbands are somewhat atypical for Officers M43 hats.

7.Thinner thread used around the base of the cap is "doubled-up"
Response: Inconclusive.

8.my cockade is red, not washed out pink
Response: Perhaps but certainly not a "normal" red.

9.mine has moth holes/ tracking in the cap and mothing on the insignia (a large hole) If someone wanted to age it, probably pretty stupid to put on right on front of the insignia.
Response: Well, perhaps, but I am not entirely sure I would agree.

10.pull tabs-only seen on fakes in the last 10-15 years at the most
Response: Again, inconclusive.

11.the way the cap "sits" or "lays" is like originals. Better than any fake I have seen
Response: as above.

12.Nap wear is real on them, not faked (IMHO)
Response: I disagree, I have seen these hats go from un-issued mint condition when they were first seen to practically destroyed (on the inside). With some examples having the entire leather sweatbands removed and the linings ripped.

Gerard, I also would love to eventually learn the truth about these hats; there is little question that many experienced collectors (like yourself) consider these to be “coin of the realm”. I am just not one of them

With regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer