Officers Wool M43 Cap

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Bryon,
Thanks for the reply. The machined thread weave, looks possibley hand sewn to the front with the same thread that held on the whole sweatband. It is only in the front forehead area though. Stop by and say hi at the SOS. I would like to meet you if you are going there. I will also have the cap there, if anyone wants to look at it. Good point on the inner band stiffener.

Gerard

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Just wanted to also state that when I bought this, it was the first like it I had ever seen. I was not around when when mint examples came out years ago. So, possibley, that may be my ignorance.

Gerard

[B. N. Singer]

Bryon,
Stop by and say hi at the SOS. I would like to meet you if you are going there. I will also have the cap there, if anyone wants to look at it. Gerard

I will make it a point to do so, it will be my pleasure to make your acquaintance Gerard.
With regards,

Bryon (B. N. Singer)

[Raven26]

My comment has nothing to do with the item in question. I do, however, have a few comments concerning the responses from the "Masters".

This thread has indeed been a pleasurable read. The members have offered their opinions in a respectable manner. They have offered opposing views and have disagreed on several aspects without making personal attacks. Kudos to all of you for the analytical views, intelligent conversation, and setting an example for other members. Thank you.

Best wishes,

Frank

[billbert]

Scary Aint It??Pistols at 20 paces.........Billbert

[B. N. Singer]

Scary Aint It??Pistols at 20 paces.........Billbert

Yes Bill, and look, ALL the people are aiming at me!!!!

Bryon (B. N.) Singer

[djpool]

My comment has nothing to do with the item in question. I do, however, have a few comments concerning the responses from the "Masters".

This thread has indeed been a pleasurable read. The members have offered their opinions in a respectable manner. They have offered opposing views and have disagreed on several aspects without making personal attacks. Kudos to all of you for the analytical views, intelligent conversation, and setting an example for other members. Thank you.

Best wishes,
Frank

Frank- How very true. Actually this is one of the most viewed and discussed threads on a single hat on this particular forum.

Gerald, Thank you for joining the discussion. I don't know if you've read the complete thread but theres a lot of interesting comments. The hat that started the thread is probably one of the unissued ones Bryon mentioned. It only shows storage wear and some light mothing. Just a point- both the authenticity of the hat and Trap. insignia are in question.

Glenn, you mentioned "I do find it a bit odd that the top button hole is always running into the bottom stitch line on the front flap." Is this what you mean?

[djpool]

Yes Bill, and look, ALL the people are aiming at me!!!!

Bryon (B. N.) Singer

Bryon,

Actually if any other collector had taken the opposite position on this hat they would have been "tar and feathered". It speaks well for your reputation within the collecting community. Of course I still agree to disagree.

I must be attracted to weird and unusual M43s. Besides this Officers version, I own the mother of all strange EM M43s-which I've had for a long time. I've never seen another one. WR Jim

[B. N. Singer]

Bryon,

Actually if any other collector had taken the opposite position on this hat they would have been "tar and feathered". WR Jim

Thank you Jim.

Of course, there is another plausible explanation that I could think of, and that is, out of kindness, other collectors are just humoring this big mouthed old crack pot!!

With regards,
Bryon (B. N.) Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

Well I received my version of this hat today and it certainly looks believeable to me. However there are a few things I find a bit odd in it's manufacture,and I think some of these same observations have already been stated.


1) Why is the top button hole always sewn in the exact same place on the upper front flap running into the 1 line of reinforcement stitching? One could say that there was not enough room on the front flap to place them elsewhere I suppose as it is narrow. Have never seen this before on any other officers M43.

2) It appears that the part of the sweatband that attaches to the hat was first machine sewn around the entire perimeter of the band with brown thread before being applied to the interior and then hand sewn through the loops of the brown thread with black thread (looks to be the same thread used to apply the insignia) Why not just machine sew the sweatband directly to the cap? seems like an unnecessary step but I suppose could have been done.

3) Why are these hats always found in human sizes,57's 58's etc. Why not anything smaller like the Statni W-SS hats (54's etc)


4) The crown piping I do find odd and the interior white cord the bullion wire is sewn too in a straight line would easily deteriorate and swell if it got wet (I suspect) thus destroying the bullion wire in the process (the white cord seems to be coming through in various places on this piping)

Basketweave bullion piping would make more sense as it is more strong and durable.


5) These hats look factory mass produced to me which again I find odd. I was always of the thought that officers M43's (at least produced by the Germans)were never mass factory produced but rather private purchase hats.(I know some will argue this) If factory produced en masse,officer upgraded hats from factory issue hats would be much less common than they are.



On this particular hat the interior is constructed from 2 different types of material,a ribbed rayon for the crown (which I have seen similar in visored hats) and a cotton material. The sweatband has stained this cotton material and if this sweatband was removed it would appear to look like sweat staining.

The wear on this hat looks natural to me, one large moth bite on the front visor and some areas of grazing on the exterior,the interior shows a few pulls in the ribbed rayon lining. The sweatband has deteriorated and has torn in a few areas.


All this being said I feel (and so does my gut feeling) that these hats are most probably original and probably Foreign manufacture (hence all the enomilies) and not German manufacture (I like the looks of the insignia as well) but I am not 100% convinced (yet).

Nice to have one as an example anyway.



Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

Well I received my version of this hat today and it certainly looks believeable to me. However there are a few things I find a bit odd in it's manufacture,and I think some of these same observations have already been stated.


1) Why is the top button hole always sewn in the exact same place on the upper front flap running into the 1 line of reinforcement stitching? One could say that there was not enough room on the front flap to place them elsewhere I suppose as it is narrow. Have never seen this before on any other officers M43.

2) It appears that the part of the sweatband that attaches to the hat was first machine sewn around the entire perimeter of the band with brown thread before being applied to the interior and then hand sewn through the loops of the brown thread with black thread (looks to be the same thread used to apply the insignia) Why not just machine sew the sweatband directly to the cap? seems like an unnecessary step but I suppose could have been done.

3) Why are these hats always found in human sizes,57's 58's etc. Why not anything smaller like the Statni W-SS hats (54's etc)


4) The crown piping I do find odd and the interior white cord the bullion wire is sewn too in a straight line would easily deteriorate and swell if it got wet (I suspect) thus destroying the bullion wire in the process (the white cord seems to be coming through in various places on this piping)

Basketweave bullion piping would make more sense as it is more strong and durable.


5) These hats look factory mass produced to me which again I find odd. I was always of the thought that officers M43's (at least produced by the Germans)were never mass factory produced but rather private purchase hats.(I know some will argue this) If factory produced en masse,officer upgraded hats from factory issue hats would be much less common than they are.



On this particular hat the interior is constructed from 2 different types of material,a ribbed rayon for the crown (which I have seen similar in visored hats) and a cotton material. The sweatband has stained this cotton material and if this sweatband was removed it would appear to look like sweat staining.

The wear on this hat looks natural to me, one large moth bite on the front visor and some areas of grazing on the exterior,the interior shows a few pulls in the ribbed rayon lining. The sweatband has deteriorated and has torn in a few areas.


All this being said I feel (and so does my gut feeling) that these hats are most probably original and probably Foreign manufacture (hence all the enomilies) and not German manufacture (I like the looks of the insignia as well) but I am not 100% convinced (yet).

Nice to have one as an example anyway.



Glenn

And also, why are these hats so often found at all (in both unissued, worn condition), for an item that in any other "style" are quite rare to find!

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

And also, why are these hats so often found at all (in both unissued, worn condition), for an item that in any other "style" are quite rare to find!

B. N. Singer

I can't answer this Bryon,it does seem rather odd as well. Perhaps just all found in one large lot and brought home by Veterans. The sweatbands seem very fragile in these so I can see how they would go missing..


A few years ago I found 35 Honor Roll clasps to the German Navy (a once very scarce award) from one Veteran alone.



Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

.... Perhaps just all found in one large lot and brought home by Veterans.
Glenn

Perhaps Glenn and then they wore them to cut their lawns! Just kidding with you of course.

But, kidding aside, I think that might have been how some of these got in the condition that they are now, from when they first appeared.

I think with these (like with anything else) a person needs to find their "comfort level."

One thing is for certain I would venture, anyone having read this thread will certainly be on the lookout to see how many examples like this they will see available!

Best regards,
Bryon

[Glenn McInnes]

Perhaps Glenn and then they wore them to cut their lawns! Just kidding with you of course.

But, kidding aside, I think that might have been how some of these got in the condition that they are now, from when they first appeared.

I think with these (like with anything else) a person needs to find their "comfort level."

Best regards,
Bryon

I just don't think these hats would be constructed with such skill 30 years ago when they started to appear.What would be the point of making a hat which back then was probably about 50 or 60 bucks?

If original I don't know if they were ever issued or not,which could explain the wear in some of these if they were.

I know the shroud of doubt that these hats have been given may very well be why so many are appearing on the market.



Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

I just don't think these hats would be constructed with such skill 30 years ago when they started to appear.What would be the point of making a hat which back then was probably about 50 or 60 bucks?

If original I don't know if they were ever issued or not,which could explain the wear in some of these if they were.

I know the shroud of doubt that these hats have been given may very well be why so many are appearing on the market.



Glenn

Yes, but back then, $50 - $60 dollars was quite a lot.

As to a "shroud of doubt" I think it is me who might be the SOLE nay sayer with them!!

B. N. Singer