A couple of Cultural items

[ETN]

I'm sure some of you cultural collectors have one of these. I bought one this last weekend.

There are reproductions about but they are crude from what I've seen. I'm confident this is a good one but I'd welcome your opinions too.

Steve,

If it's made form cupal, it's a good one. I've been looking for one of these for some time now

Erich

[Steve T]

Steve,

If it's made form cupal, it's a good one. I've been looking for one of these for some time now

Erich

Thanks Erich, yeah, it looks like a cu/al/cu sandwich. The fakes I know of are silver plated brass, larger too.

[ETN]

Thanks Erich, yeah, it looks like a cu/al/cu sandwich. The fakes I know of are silver plated brass, larger too.

Hi Steve,

Beautiful! Congratulations on finding a such nice example

If it ever needs a new home, please contact me.

Best,
Erich

[maestro]

RE: Quedlinburg

Steve, could you kindly provide more info regarding this piece? for example, backside picture if possible, rough dimensions if possible, rough weigh (heavy or light).. to get a general idea.. otherwise, absolutely gorgeous!!!

[maestro]

Andreas, where can i get one!??!!

[Jack83]

I'm sure some of you cultural collectors have one of these. I bought one this last weekend.

There are reproductions about but they are crude from what I've seen. I'm confident this is a good one but I'd welcome your opinions too.

Excellent piece, Steve! You always seem to come out with something new!

[JoeW]

Don

A good article in Miltaria heft 6 2003 about bread plates, I think you would enjoy if you don't have it already. ( German txt.)

Most areas of TR collecting are well documented, cultural items are not, in some respects makes this are more fascinating, new things to learn. I thoroughly enjoy this area.

Actually the article is about Allach wedding goblets presented by the SS and in the article the author, Henrich Schild of the Gahr book, discusses the wooden bread plate and salt cellar that he states were presented at SS wedding ceremonies. He cites some BA material as well as the original Weitzel book and the Ulrich/Barger reprint and an SS calendar.

Judging from the source evidence presented, there can be no doubt that some type of wooden bread plate as well as a salt cellar of some material were presented to the newly married SS couple. There is even a photo found in the 1939 issue SS calendar. From the calendar Schild mentions, one particular type of phrasing is evident. There is no mention of presentation by the commanding officer of the regiment.

But, there can be no way to ascertain whether any particular plate was used by the SS, unless that plate has some "extra" info on it. I think the best that can be said is that these plates were of the style of those presented at SS weddings. The Hermann description is reasonably accurate with the phrase in italics deleted. The important words are underlined.

"Plates of this kind were presented by Leaders of the SS Standarts for the occasion of marriage consecration."

I don't know if one can ever calculate a percentage chance that a particular plate was SS used. So calling it specifically an SS bread plate is taking a great deal of latitude with the facts.

[Michael Fay]

Actually the article is about Allach wedding goblets presented by the SS and in the article the author, Henrich Schild of the Gahr book, discusses the wooden bread plate and salt cellar that he states were presented at SS wedding ceremonies. He cites some BA material as well as the original Weitzel book and the Ulrich/Barger reprint and an SS calendar.

Judging from the source evidence presented, there can be no doubt that some type of wooden bread plate as well as a salt cellar of some material were presented to the newly married SS couple. There is even a photo found in the 1939 issue SS calendar. From the calendar Schild mentions, one particular type of phrasing is evident. There is no mention of presentation by the commanding officer of the regiment.

But, there can be no way to ascertain whether any particular plate was used by the SS, unless that plate has some "extra" info on it. I think the best that can be said is that these plates were of the style of those presented at SS weddings. The Hermann description is reasonably accurate with the phrase in italics deleted. The important words are underlined.

"Plates of this kind were presented by Leaders of the SS Standarts for the occasion of marriage consecration."

I don't know if one can ever calculate a percentage chance that a particular plate was SS used. So calling it specifically an SS bread plate is taking a great deal of latitude with the facts.

"Plates of this kind were presented by Leaders of the SS Standarts for the occasion of marriage consecration."

I don't know if one can ever calculate a percentage chance that a particular plate was SS used. So calling it specifically an SS bread plate is taking a great deal of latitude with the facts.[/QUOTE]"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe,
I wholeheartedly agree,
while it is true some wood plates are shown in photos being used in a few marriages and ceremonies, this can never be used as proof that any and all wood plates were presented by the leaders of the SS.
that is nothing but willful misrepresentation.

[Seiler]

I'm sure some of you cultural collectors have one of these. I bought one this last weekend.

There are reproductions about but they are crude from what I've seen. I'm confident this is a good one but I'd welcome your opinions too.

You beat me by seconds to this one.(Greedy me already have it)
Genuine cupal piece with replaced pin.
There is also a silvered one.
(Now all you need is the "booklet")
Good score as very rare.
Seiler

[Thorsten B.]

Now let´s go into detail:

I do not wholeheartedly agree with Joe´s comment due to this:

We have doubtless evidence that - at least - two different carved dedications on SS wedding plates appear:

- the one depicted in the 1939 SS calendar

- and the second one depicted in the Weitzel book

An example of the one depicted in the SS calendar has to my knowledge not surfaced yet - it was probably an example indeed only gifted by Himmler personally which means that it was somehow a more luxurious version of an SS wedding plate.
One should not forget to mention that it bears a runic symbol (Hagal-Rune) as well.


The dedication on the one depicted in the Weitzel book can be clearly - by taking a magnifier - identified as "Ehret die Scholle die uns ernährt" - without any runic symbol.

The one depicted in the SS calendar was a version given only to selected members of the SS - the one depicted in the Weitzel book is the common version for the common (not selected) SS-marriage.
Interestingly enough there is no salt pot visable in the Weitzel book pic so one can assume that not every SS-marriage included bread and salt as symbolic/religious gifts of the earth but at least always the gift of a loaf of bread.

[Steve T]

You beat me by seconds to this one.(Greedy me already have it)
Genuine cupal piece with replaced pin.
There is also a silvered one.
(Now all you need is the "booklet")
Good score as very rare.
Seiler

Thanks for you reply.

Do you think the brass with silver plate versions are fakes? I bought one as a fake many years ago for a few dollars.

[Thorsten B.]

More details:

Why do I not agree with Michael´s statement?

Easy!

He is obviously still thinking he can put me down and ride attack after attack against me and in addition to that also against the pieces I offer from time to time - a personal mini-crusade!

With what?

Honourably holding the banner of truth in his hands he rides on his white horse attacks against the dark side of this hobby and collector´s life in general: Thorsten B.!

So what is indeed the truth?

The truth is that the statement in my last comment refering to the SS wedding plates is absolutely correct and there is doubtless evidence given by the mentioned documents of the period - so it is true.

And now I want to see the doubtless evidence for his claim that not every wooden plate bearing the dedication "Ehret die Scholle die uns ernährt" is an SS wedding plate - I want to see that evidence.

Where can one find it?

Yes, Steve presented one wooden plate bearing that dedication which was not from the period but a later example from the DDR - but one can easily see that on the one hand it is not carved in the very same style of the period (it also just does not bear the patina I expect from a piece from the period) and on the other hand it depicts carved symbols or somehow a pic in the center as well!

So how could that plate have been in use as a common SS wedding plate?

If the center is carved as well there is no place left for the loaf of bread.
-----------------------------------------------

Now I have shown also one wooden plate with awesome carvings of fruits bearing the dedication: "Ehret die Scholle die uns ernährt".

This is a representative and very skillful wall plate - not a bread plate!

[Thorsten B.]

For refreshing memory: here it is again - clearly visable that it´s a wall plate.

Clearly visable as well that it is very old - in my opinion without any doubt from the period.

If this one would be for sale and one feels not comfy with it and does not believe that it is an original piece from the period - well, then just don´t buy it.

And if someone comes along in a forum like this and shares his opinion (that this is not an original plate from the period) then he should be able to back up his opinion.

If he can´t it is sense- and worthless and finally does not hurt the piece in question and the seller but the credibility and the knowledge of the one who comes up with that claim.

[Thorsten B.]

By the way:

If the potential buyer of this one wants to let it check in the mentioned institute for age determination - no problem, he just needs to pay the test, just about 100-150 Euros so not that bad.

And after the test he has not only a great unique cultural piece from the period but also the doubtless evidence coming along with it!

And that´s what really matters - how many "SS MK boxes" out there will be successfully sold to collectors without that test?

It´s up to the seller AND the buyer to know what they offer and what they buy.

In my opinion those cultural wooden pieces which successfully pass the age determination test and are certified as original pieces from the period will be even more valuable in the future - the rest is worthless junk and nobody will buy it.

Means: the crooks who sell faked wooden pieces will run out of gas - GOOD for all honest dealers, sellers, buyers and collectors.

Good for the whole market!

Bad for the crooks - AND for those individuals who claim something being fake but cannot back it up.

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

So tell me now: who is the bad egg?