A couple of Cultural items

[Michael Fay]

Thank You for this picture, Michael.

As I said: the usual common hatred agenda...

Michael, that´s just boring.

It has been discussed, you got your money (more than in full) back and I apologized for it - no need for polluting this nice and informative thread over and over again.

I invited you more than once to shake hands again - that´s all I can do.

I offered help regarding a real criminal case of ripping somebody off to Steve and another WAF member - that´s more than many would be willing to do, I guess.

If you cannot enjoy discussing cultural items then I suggest you either cool down or just stay away from that part of the hobby.

Spreading out negativity over and over again does not do good to anybody.

Or are you just jealous?

You just changed your story completely from a few posts back.
Dont you know anyone can go back and read them?

You tried to steal from me in a collectors deal. I was not paid more than in full, and after being forced to repay me by the WAF moderator, a apology from you is worth as much as your honor.
I will never let you lie about it.
If you stop claiming you are an innocent victim of hate crimes ,then I wont continue to defend myself with the facts.
But go ahead...keep it up. It is good for everyone to know about you.

And by the way,
the rugs....the teppichsche....
So now we know some were being made in the Third Reich style in 1970, 1980, etc.
So it is time to be suspicious of the teppich.
If you consider that "NEGATIVITY" Then I am proud to be so.

[Michael Fay]

Hello Michael,

the picture on the wall (right side of the womens had) looks like a photo/drawing of an 1000 Deutsche Mark bill, perhaps, the release date of this bill was 7.27.1964

Alex

Alex,
you are right! that really looks like the guy.
And a relase date of 1964.
Very good detective work. So the lady working the rug machine"loom" is from 1964 to the 1970's at least.
So we also know some Third Reich stlye rugs were produced in the 60's 70's etc.

[Thorsten B.]

So we agree to disagree, that´s fine.

And I can live with your pseudo-insults as well.

By the way: you bought your so-called SS MK casket or whatever I should call it and there is no evidence supporting that that piece is the real deal as well.

And still you are happy - or proud - to own it.

If I were you I would send it to Milano to get it checked but that´s another matter.

I know why I collected the DHW booklets and if I might decide to sell anything from my collection you can be sure that I can back it up.

By the way:

If I wouldn´t have started to collect these cultural beauties years ago - at a time where hardly anybody in the world of militaria and SS collectors had any clue about them - about 80% of the pieces proudly presented by collectors of today here in this thread wouldn´t be in their collections.

[Minnesinger]

That is a beautiful rug. Is it not a high quality homemade item? Or just have some extra hand stiched bits to it? --I could be wrong. What area does it come from, if you know.

Thank you. Yes it is handmade at home by a woman and quality is superb. It has two different stitchingtecniques in it that I see (a woman might see more) sewn on a wool mat or what you should call it. Im not 100% on origin but I think it is a good chance it is from east gothland in the middle part of Sweden even though it has alpine ibex on it. It is an important heraldic animal in Sweden.

[Michael Fay]

truth

So we agree to disagree, that´s fine.

And I can live with your pseudo-insults as well.

.

There is no disagreement. You are a liar and a thief, who got caught and forced to repay me.

Is the truth an insult?
No, it just the truth.

But what about those 1970's teppiches that look like TR era rugs?
Do you have any for sale at bargain prices?

[Thorsten B.]

Not too long ago in a waiting room of a practice in Berlin...

Enough is enough now.

But what about this one, Michael?

Not a tapestry but still a nice original DHW piece.

It can be dismantled gently and so can easily be shipped as well.


Minnesinger,

many thanks for sharing your lovely tapestry - it looks great!

More of that, please!

[Thorsten B.]

Uups, pic is too big to upload it.

[Thorsten B.]

DHW closet

This is from around 1936-38 and was the most exclusive piece of furniture being offered by DHW.

[Minnesinger]

Minnesinger,

many thanks for sharing your lovely tapestry - it looks great!

More of that, please!

Not a hanging but old pillow. Pure wool weave, no stitching, with an ouroboros. The man or woman who made it apparently was so proud there is a small makersmark on the front. I haven't opened it but I'm sure the back has the colors inverted.

[Steve T]

Ok, lets use some common sense. Now I don't want to offend anyone but really if anyone thinks weaving mills, blacksmiths wood craftsmen and such like said we better close our businesses now because its the end of the war then that's frankly a bit naive.

OK if you made SS daggers then soon after you filled the requirements of putting together daggers for the GI's, or stamping out a few Knights Crosses you would soon stop, at least legally when such activity was banned a few years soon after the war, no offensive symbols and so on. On the other hand with a weaving mill producing tapestries, table cloths and such like, why would they stop producing traditional traditional weaved products? Its common sense to think they carried on.

As collectors we have to do own own homework and satisfy ourselves that we make the right decisions. I think collecting any these cultural items carries more risk than say collecting badges. Just look at something like a Germanische Leistungsrune, its a very simple badge, you can learn about it and spot fakes from 10 paces if you want to. Not so easy with textiles.

Its a tough subject and just like you guys I do as much research as I can, and I like to think the tapestry purchases I've made are all genuine, as far as I can tell, you just have to tick as many boxes as you can. I don't know of any tapestry that can be proven with absolute provenance all the way back to pre-1945. If you need that you need to accept that you will have a tiny collection or just give up collecting cultural pieces, you won't find many.

Anyway, back to it. The two tapestries that Thorsten mentioned that I might show are here. They do come from the same household and in communications with the couple that sold them they tell me they were bought by the husbands Grandfather in the 1930's. One was displayed on the wall and hung by a simple clamp hanger and the other was not. It apparently spent most of its life in a closet. The statement of the seller are consistent with the conditions of the pieces. Both have some damage from moth, minor in the case of the piece kept away from light in the closet while the other is clearly quite faded and has provided many a good meal for the moths! I used to collect SS insignia in the 80's/90's and the moths prefer the wool to the cotton, just like on a runes tab, the runes intact while they dine out on the wool. The tapestry was clearly only displayed on one side, the colour is still a rich dark chocolate brown on the reverse, and the moths didn't eat out so much that side either, only minor damage.

I like these tapestries because of their wear and for the information that can be gleaned from them. It is clear these type of tapestries can survive very well with very little damage. It is also clear that one piece was displayed, the mothing, the impressed hanger marks, the protection the hanger gave against UV light to the top of the tapestry, the evidence of what I believe is called 'iron mould' that old textiles can pick up over time.

So what boxes do they tick? We are never going to get many but the following are positive in my view. The sellers have no reason to make up a story. The gold brown tapestry is of a pattern clearly observed in the DHW catalog, so the pattern existed in the TR period, thats a fact. The brown piece was clearly used and the gold one wasn't and consistent with what the sellers stated. The style of design of the brown piece is known to be used in the TR period, although I should still say, it is not exactly similar to the tree of life in the DHW catalogs. Interestingly there is also a design detail in this tree of life that I have not seen on any other tree of life tapestry. So one is very likely a DHW product and the other maybe, maybe not, and does it actually matter? Does it matter if it were bought in a Home Depot that bought the product from a weaving mill or bought from the weaving mill or other shop? We don't know if any particular mill had an exclusive contract with DHW do we? Its quite reasonable to think there could have been other avenues to purchase the product. So from wherever it was bought its still a TR period product, and clearly approved of by the SS drivers of this enterprise as they wanted it in their shops. Actually knowing whether it was bought in a DHW shop doesn't really make much difference to me.

The format of both pieces is interesting too. They are both landscape format and wider than any of the other tapestries we see, though from the construction we can see that the central piece is the same width as other tapestries so I think this is the width of the loom machine. The extra pieces on the side are weave separately and then sewn to the centre piece to make the landscape format.

That's about all I can tell you and forgive my ramblings! I hope you enjoy the picture

[Steve T]

Other..oh, and and together

[Thorsten B.]

Great pictures - great pieces!

That´s for what this thread is made.

Thank you for your priceless input!

[Minnesinger]

So who wants a couple of metres of this beautiful tree of life pattern?



What do you think about this piece by the way?

[JoeW]

The textile information here is very interesting. Steve T's last post should be the subject of much consideration. Likewise Michael introduction of pre- and post-III Reich production.

But something has me a bit confused. We speak of Deutsches Heimatwerk tapestries being created in weaving mills. Yet this appears contrary to the purpose or focus of the DHW. I offer this statement from the 1940 DHW catalog mentioned earlier in this titanic thread.



This is my attempt at translation. Forgive my ineptitude.

Rural Craft-Culture

The products of the Deutschen Heimatswerkes are made by peasant and farm handicraft. The sales of these products of rural handiwork brings peasants, small farmers, country-helpers the additional income necessary for the existence of the farmer and with it the possibility, to find a living in the countryside, and there, to remain. Their work, their adherence to Anthro-Cultural History (Ahnenerbe) of the race are the foundations of the rural community-culture in present and future.

This statement seems to contradict any idea of mass production, weaving mills and the like. What happened? Are the items mass produced or handiwerk?

Examing my Teppich that I bought back in 2006 out of Germany, I am struck by the crude quality of the weaving.



Obviously damaged by sunlight, the texture of the textile is rough; crude at times. Notice the weave and thread size in this photo showing the front (right) and reverse (left).



The base thread structure seems almost canvas quality. Hardly the product of a modern 1930s mill. Or am I expecting too much from the industrial revolution?

[Steve T]

So who wants a couple of metres of this beautiful tree of life pattern?



What do you think about this piece by the way?

Is the second one a crop of this piece? It was sold in a New York shop more than a year ago if I remember correctly. Not one I think I'd like to own myself but I like the pattern.