New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[John R.]

Nick,

Norm and I have discussed post 118 and we are in agreement that there is no obvious issue with what was said.

Norm and I both look forward to your French 30's regimentals. It will be interesting and a change for us here if this is the forum in which you plan to post the information.

Please understand that this is a moderation decision and not meant to disparage you or the opinions of others on what should and should not be edited/deleted on this forum.

John

[John R.]

That’s a perfectly valid position — option 4 in the poll.



Best regards,
—-Norm

Norm,

I am sure you have observed that I have corrected my English grammar recently!!!!

John

[GAMS1]

Nick,

Norm and I have discussed post 118 and we are in agreement that there is no obvious issue with what was said.

Norm and I both look forward to your French 30's regimentals. It will be interesting and a change for us here if this is the forum in which you plan to post the information.

Please understand that this is a moderation decision and not meant to disparage you or the opinions of others on what should and should not be edited/deleted on this forum.

John

Ok for me , no problem .
I'll post some pics of the french regimental badges when i'll be back , in this Forum , next WE !
Nick

[Norm F]

I showed some images of French regimental badges from eBay in the previous thread here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...73#post7600173
showing the similarity of their hardware to the French-made KM badges

I don't know whether these pins are real or not since they are way outside my area of expertise, but I see them on the internet described as Mourgeon-attributed wartime and pre-wartime issue. The setups are quite similar to the "French-made" KM badges. Does anyone know anything about these?

I know this is a repetitive, but perhaps those posts have been forgotten in the depths of the discussion. Nobody else commented at that time, so I too look forward to Nick's input on these.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I also posted previous observations of the similarity of the hardware to a particular style of KM summer uniform breast eagle which could be French made as well:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...31#post7361131

The above thread is the same one to which I posted a link in the opening post of this discussion in the "pro" section. That eagle was in the same U.S. vet collection as four French-made KM badges, and judging from the view of the edges the eagle may very well be cast production as well.

The point of all this, is that support for the wartime argument is all based on the theory that there was a tradition of French cast production before and during WWII.

I'm sympathetic to this argument (as seen from my previous posts) but I still stumble over the fact that some features of the KM badges appear to mimic a die-struck appearance, and I still can't think of an explanation for that.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's a current listing on French eBay for a pin obviously of cast production, said to be made by Arthus Bertrand, which is remarkably similar in style to the French-made KM badges. I know nothing about these badges to verify authenticity but for what it's worth the description is as follows:

"Insigne de poitrine authentique en métal
bonne fabrication de 1939/1940 Arthus Bertrand , épingle à bascule sans marque
(original French Army insignia)
GARANTI ORIGINAL"

"Authentic metal chest badge
good manufacturing of 1939/1940 Arthus Bertrand, unmarked rocker pin
(original French Army insignia)
GUARANTEED ORIGINAL"

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Another from a different vendor, with the description:
"Insigne du 53° Bataillon de Chasseurs Alpins, période seconde guerre mondiale (bataillon de réserve recréé en 1939 et dissous en 1940)
Fabricant : Arthus Bertrand Paris Déposé
Bon état, légèrement patiné (voir photos)"

"Badge of the 53rd Battalion of Alpine Fighters, World War II period (reserve battalion recreated in 1939 and dissolved in 1940)
Manufacturer: Arthus Bertrand Paris Posted
Good condition, slightly weathered (see photos)"

[Norm F]

and another.

[Norm F]

As noted before, the type described as "attributed to Mourgeon" sometimes have a flat-wire catch similar to the KM badges.

[Chris Boonzaier]

"I'm sympathetic to this argument (as seen from my previous posts) but I still stumble over the fact that some features of the KM badges appear to mimic a die-struck appearance, and I still can't think of an explanation for that."

I know zero about manufacturing, but is it possible that a badge be cast as a planchette, then have the planchette die struck? It seems to be an easier way to make badges as you do not need a perfect steel cut die like German firms used?

[Norm F]

"I'm sympathetic to this argument (as seen from my previous posts) but I still stumble over the fact that some features of the KM badges appear to mimic a die-struck appearance, and I still can't think of an explanation for that."

I know zero about manufacturing, but is it possible that a badge be cast as a planchette, then have the planchette die struck? It seems to be an easier way to make badges as you do not need a perfect steel cut die like German firms used?

Hi Chris,

I don't quite understand your meaning. Microscopy of the surface characteristics of the French-made badges shows they are a product of casting and are not die-struck, nor have they been trimmed with a trimming stamp in the way of German badges. And yet the badges show faint striations on the margins that mimic a die struck appearance, superimposed by the pocked cast surface texture (see attached images).

The question is why were these linear marks included in the casting dies? They appear to have been created somehow when the original design was engraved.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Chris Boonzaier]

Ahh.. OK, trimming stamp was the word I was looking for. I though maybe they would have cast them, then used a trimming stamp to trim the cast piece. Could the lines be the result of some kind of trimming?

[Norm F]

Ahh.. OK, trimming stamp was the word I was looking for. I though maybe they would have cast them, then used a trimming stamp to trim the cast piece. Could the lines be the result of some kind of trimming?

No, because the casting blobs and defects are visible superimposed upon the linear markings rather than vice versa. Also, as mentioned back on the third page of this discussion, the linear markings sometimes continue up over the edge and onto the obverse surface -- something that couldn't happen with a trimming die.

Those lines must have been present in the casting die before the badge was made, hence the mystery as to why they are there.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - Sounds like you are describing a mold (or die) made from a badge which has already been struck...........

[Norm F]

Norm - Sounds like you are describing a mold (or die) made from a badge which has already been struck...........

Hi Gentry,

That would be possible if it were only striations on the edges, but as mentioned the marks often continue on to the obverse surface which has nothing to do with a die-struck badge in the first place.

Best regards,
---Norm