New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

It is a mystery to me why there are still more votes for Option 1 (official awards) than Option 2 (disallowed wartime manufacture) since even those who believe them to be French wartime manufacture have no hard evidence they were ever officially issued prior to the PK announcement effectively banning such practise.

Are we still losing time on this subject ?
This is like the Billy Mitchell scandal that is taking too much time to be resolved (remove his scores from Twin Galaxies, period).
There is enough proofs to stop that madness, especially the smoke screen of the "Mourgeon badges" (that do not look anything like the pin/quality of the Fakeville badges but whatever...).
Massive insult to Mourgeon and their quality...

And we don't need 99% of "it is a post-war fake" votes to confirm anything.
Believers can even have 99% of "it is a period badge" votes, it will not change FACTS. Anyone can believe that Marty used the DeLorean to bring back those badges to Johnson & co...

See You

Vince

[swjXE]

Agreed. I remember going to a vets meeting and seeing repro- items being sold at the meeting. There were cufftitles and fake SS buckles.
This was 25 years ago. No doubt some of there grandkids now swear they are real because they came from granddad from the war.

Also, it struck me how many things vets got wrong when it came to material and equipment and so.
These guys get old, and they had other things on their mind.

Phillipson,

Thanks for backing me up. I used to put out an ad to buy WW2 items in the 80's
At least twice I received calls from vets who wanted to sell their collections, great old guys who brought quite a few items back directly from Germany. On examining their items I found a few fakes mixed in. I carefully brought up the fact that I believed a few of their items were "copies" and they both admitted that they had, through the years picked up a few items from swap meets and antique stores and now weren't in all cases sure which items they were. In essence these Vets had become collectors and had become vulnerable to getting screwed like the rest of us are.

Cheers,
Eric

[Norm F]

There is enough proofs to stop that madness, especially the smoke screen of the "Mourgeon badges" (that do not look anything like the pin/quality of the Fakeville badges but whatever...).

Hi Vince,

What's your opinion on the regimental pin in post 141:
http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/s...&postcount=141

Do you believe that pin is also post-war or could you accept that one as 1930s-40s (regardless of who the maker was)?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Philipson]

Phillipson,

Thanks for backing me up. I used to put out an ad to buy WW2 items in the 80's
At least twice I received calls from vets who wanted to sell their collections, great old guys who brought quite a few items back directly from Germany. On examining their items I found a few fakes mixed in. I carefully brought up the fact that I believed a few of their items were "copies" and they both admitted that they had, through the years picked up a few items from swap meets and antique stores and now weren't in all cases sure which items they were. In essence these Vets had become collectors and had become vulnerable to getting screwed like the rest of us are.

Cheers,
Eric

What you state, makes, again, perfect sense. Of course that's how it goes. And it should be evident to all.
Think about this: Giving your grandson a german badge, and telling him you took it from a dead german officer, instead of telling him you bought it in a garage sale, does not make you a bad person, it makes you a great granddad!

Having respect for vets does not mean every one of their stories is gospel or fact.
two entirely different things.

[Philipson]

Giel, not only do they not turn up in in German vet groupings, no collector form east Germany ever saw these, BEFORE THE WALL FELL!!
(wich was in '89 if memory serves me right.)

Also, dealers were asked their opinions , a number of posts ago, in this thread, :
If you ask an opinion from dealers, that sold a 100 or more of these badges as originals. You can't really expect them to state they are dodgy can you?

Would not touch these badges with a 6 foot pole...

That's because many people have them in their collection and don't want to loose their investment.

For me it's simple, they are casted pieces but if the production method was like that... I can't see how we can distinguish pre to post war here. Especially because they have their own design the production pieces must have been made from few "mother" pieces in the house.

Secondly, none of the badges turn up in German vet groupings, none are to be seen on period photos. For me this almost completely excludes that they were accepted by the German authorities or been into circulation there.

Thirdly, which is not made up story either, A LOT of badges turn up in American GI groupings.

I would place my money on the fact that these were produced as souvenirs for the occupation forces. If you see how much awards/badges they took with them in Germany, there would have been a high need in France too.

[Leroy]

IF (and it is a very big "if"), these badges were in fact made in France during the occupation and never distributed, why on earth would anyone expect to see them with German vets (or, for that matter, in the hands of collectors in East Germany)? Same for the argument "they don't show up in period photos" or "in ground-dug finds". These are "disqualifiers" which, to me at least, have no relevance at all to this discussion.

[Norm F]

IF (and it is a very big "if"), these badges were in fact made in France during the occupation and never distributed, why on earth would anyone expect to see them with German vets (or, for that matter, in the hands of collectors in East Germany)? Same for the argument "they don't show up in period photos" or "in ground-dug finds". These are "disqualifiers" which, to me at least, have no relevance at all to this discussion.

Hi Gentry,

As you say those points are not disqualifiers for poll option 2, but they are indeed disqualifiers for poll option 1 and thus relevant to the discussion.

But what I'm mainly interested in now, is the provenance and verifiability of time of production for the regimental badges like the one in post #141. If that can be nailed down, and considering the close similarity in cast construction to the French-made KM badges, that would indeed be a compelling argument for wartime (unsanctioned) production. If, on the other hand, those regimental pins are under the same cloud of controversy then we're no further ahead.

To my mind, the logical polling choice is between options 2 and 3 (and 4) while poll option 1 is a real stretch.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Gentry,

If that can be nailed down, and considering the close similarity in cast construction to the French-made KM badges, that would indeed be a compelling argument for wartime (unsanctioned) production. If, on the other hand, those regimental pins are under the same cloud of controversy then we're no further ahead.

They would need to be examined under the microscope as well methinks

[Leroy]

Option 1 seems to be out the window...........

[Norm F]

If that can be nailed down, and considering the close similarity in cast construction to the French-made KM badges, that would indeed be a compelling argument for wartime (unsanctioned) production. If, on the other hand, those regimental pins are under the same cloud of controversy then we're no further ahead.

They would need to be examined under the microscope as well methinks

Hi Chris,

Already from the closeups on post #141 you can see that they are similar cast production to the KM badges so in this case I don't think microscopy will add anything new. What we really need is provenance for those regimentals. Also, in my mind I'm inclined to lump those regimental badges along with the KM summer uniform breast eagle with the similar setup that I showed earlier -- if one is wartime (or early pre-war) then likely they all are. Conversely, if one is post-war that casts doubt on the other.

The corollary of that is, if one believes the KM breast eagle is wartime with that finish and that setup (and I think JC who collects these things is inclined in that direction), one might logically believe the KM badges to also be wartime, despite their crude casting method.

Even if these ugly, fairly common, unawarded badges are not one's cup of tea (and not worth the money that's often asked for them), it's an interesting topic of discussion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Chris,

Already from the closeups on post #141 you can see that they are similar cast production to the KM badges so in this case I don't think microscopy will add anything new. What we really need is provenance for those regimentals. Also, in my mind I'm inclined to lump those regimental badges along with the KM summer uniform breast eagle with the similar setup that I showed earlier -- if one is wartime (or early pre-war) then likely they all are. Conversely, if one is post-war that casts doubt on the other.

Even if these ugly, fairly common, unawarded badges are not one's cup of tea (and not worth the money that's often asked for them), it's an interesting topic of discussion.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hi,

for the most part the badges shown are kosher prewar French Pocket badges. Most of those units did not exist after 1945.

It seems it comes a full circle and the Microscopy does not prove a fake, but rather that French and German production methods are different.

If that be so, a lot of people have been insulted for nothing a number of reputations have been questioned for nothing, and we are no wiser than before :-)

There is another option that should have been included in the voting.....

- These were made unofficially during the war by an industrious crook wanting to make money of the Germans.... and he dusted off his stamps/moulds/machines years later when he saw there was a collectors market.

[Norm F]

Hi Chris,

It seems it comes a full circle and the Microscopy does not prove a fake, but rather that French and German production methods are different.

Quite possibly, but not yet confirmed. In fact, that argument has been made right from the beginning after Jo proved unequivocally that they were cast in a porous mold.

If that be so, a lot of people have been insulted for nothing a number of reputations have been questioned for nothing, and we are no wiser than before :-)

I like to think this discussion has avoided insults and endeavored to stick to the facts.

There is another option that should have been included in the voting.....

- These were made unofficially during the war by an industrious crook wanting to make money of the Germans.... and he dusted off his stamps/moulds/machines years later when he saw there was a collectors market.

That’s compatible with option 2 in the poll...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Philipson]

Gents,

Compare the video's of the "French Badges" with this die cast german one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6OyTJiuJk4

They are completely different. There is no comparaison. It is obvious. The Backevilles are not a professionally made machinemade product.

In my mind, one can only conclude the so called Backevilles are not made by a medal maker indeed.


What i got from the precvious 23page thread;

Badges from the KM head quarters supposedly were picked up by a dealer/ faker in the mid '50-ties. (this according to the somewhat cloudy timeline in the story posted earlier)
These finds, according to this story have included woundbadges and EK's.

No one takes these WB and EK into further account but it seems important to me, because obviously there are no french made woundbadges or EK's.
So if these are german made, why not all badges there?
I think the KM-headquarters story could be real , but the woundbadges, Ek's and KM badges were german made.

When this dealer/faker ran out of original badges to sell, he had 'em made.


Now, My theory solves 2 questions that so far remain unanswered.

1. This would explain why the "backevilles" turned up en masse only in the '70-ties.
2. It also solves another question! It answers why only KM badges were "French made". Because the faker used an existing, welknown real story of found badges in the KM headquarters in Paris. That is why there are no french IAB, GAB,...

After reading 23pages of the old thread, and watching 3 video's of over 30 mins each, i 'm not sure what remains to be researched. -sorry-


Do you remember the famous movie from the sixties where a bigfoot walks in the woods?
The man who came out and confessed he made the gorilla suit was called a fraud.
There Will Always be someone defending these...

to French volunteer for your energy in the previous thread!

[Chris Boonzaier]

"Compare the video's of the "French Badges" with this die cast german one:"

The pertinent comparison would be to compare it to French die cast ones from the 30s and 40s

[GAMS1]

Thanks Nick. Absolutely, I’m not expecting any Mourgeon-marked German insignia; I meant have you seen any comparable Mourgeon-marked products that were pre-war or early wartime, like the Arthus Bertrand pins.

Best regards,
—-Norm

I don't recall having seen Pre 1940 Mourgeon marked Regimental badges ...
The badges i posted are all original pre 40 french made badges from various manufacturers but all of them are made in the same style as the KM badges ...
US Vets Souvenirs market for german Militaria in France in the 50's or 60's ?
What a joke ...
In Germany for sure but not in France !
I know some french vets which bought german medals in the 60's but directly in Germany or Austria , where they were sold for german vets .
Most of these were Souval made .
Nick