New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[Leroy]

"Recently several foreign companies from the occupied countries or from friendly abroad made applications for the distribution of German orders and medals and have approached German companies with the request to deliver German orders and medals, especially war badges. To this we remark:
In general it is unwanted that the marketing with German orders and medals is conducted by foreign companies. There cannot be recognized a requirement for it, since the owner of German decorations can secure replacements or sdditional pieces without any great effort from a company inside the Reich. The delivery of German orders, decorations or ribbons to foreingn companies hasto be omitted. In very special exceptional cases the statement of the Präsidialkanzlei has to be obtained up front."

The above is Dietrich's translation of the announcement from Dr. Doehle's office in the June, 1942, edition of UniformenMarkt.

Before leaving this thread behind, I wanted to make one observation: UniformenMarkt was a publication directed to German companies. It was also a vehicle for warnings against conduct that was officially frowned upon or outright forbidden, intended to alert German companies to things they should not engage in. Please note that this particular announcement talks about foreign companies making application (presumably to Dr. Doehle's office) to distribute German orders and medals ("especially war badges") but also (and perhaps more importantly) contacts being made by such foreign companies with German companies, requesting that the German companies facilitate this by delivering such things to the foreign companies. Nothing whatsoever is said about manufacture in foreign countries, nor, to my knowledge, has anyone ever shown any follow-up directive issued by any German occupation authority/representative in such foreign countries specifically banning manufacture of German orders and medals in such countries (although such a thing may exist).

The so-called 'original' "Bacqueville" (sic) badges I have seen (not the copies which appeared later) were of German badges authorized before June 1942. Nothing thereafter. Why not?

Just something to think about. I honestly cannot firmly decide now, based on what I have seen, whether they are wartime or not.

[Norm F]

Hi Gentry,

Yes, the observation has been made previously that the PK announcement deals with the marketing of German awards and not with their production. This is usually followed with the reasoning that if companies in occupied countries were forbidden to even sell German awards then it’s doubly unlikely they would be permitted to manufacture them. (Again, we are talking about only awards here, not insignia.)

This is then followed by those doing the math to point out that leaves a good two years prior to June, 1942 for French entrepreneurs to have tested the waters before regulations caught up with them. And that also provides the potential rationale for them to have been stashed away and never issued when they were not accepted by the authorities. After the war, one could imagine they would be just an embarrassing example of collusion with the Germans and remain socked away until time had attenuated the stigma.

All very logical and all purely theoretical.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Leroy]

Hi Gentry,

Yes, the observation has been made previously that the PK announcement deals with the marketing of German awards and not with their production. This is usually followed with the reasoning that if companies in occupied countries were forbidden to even sell German awards then it’s doubly unlikely they would be permitted to manufacture them.

Norm, not really arguing with you. Just trying to clarify.

The problem, to me, is that nothing forbade foreign manufacture or sale in the announcement. German companies were simply given the clear message: Do not cooperate with foreigners by providing them with badges to sell.

Now it may certainly be (and probably is) logical that this would put the end to any manufacturing or sale by or in those countries or areas, and very likely they got the message there and that's exactly what happened, but the announcement was to German companies and called marketing "unwanted" and stated that there "was no requirement for it" as German companies could easily satisfy demand. There was, however, no direct ban on activity by foreigners, but instead merely a cut-off of any supply to them from German companies. I just think that fine distinction should be recognized.

Is it possible that some company in France, being unable to obtain pieces from Germany, thought (at least for some brief period) that it could "do it on its own", before throwing in the towel?

Just another unknown.

[GAMS1]

Hi,



The problem is that the pins of the French period badges don't look anything like the Fakeville badges... Can we move on ?
And that saying "Fakeville badges are different from German ones" is a very fallacious argument to imply that they may be period made.

Just ask old dealers around you. You will hear very very bad stories... People are starting to talk, people who sold and saw many scams.

See You

Vince

The problem is i don't know who do you call "old dealers" from Paris ? Franquez , Caravano , Optas , Hanot , Denis ... ?
Who did you talk to ? And who told you these badges were fakes ? With wich Proofs ?
I was on the market in the 70's myself : were you there ?
So everything you are talking about are "stories" actually ?
Exactly the same thing you use to dismiss these badges , as people were only using "stories" for trying to prove these badges could be "original" ?
Fallacious argument ? A fact in the story ! Different making !
I already said the pins are german style , certainly specially made to get a german Look , as they were not used for french badges , so not on the market at that time ...
Nick

[Norm F]

Is it possible that some company in France, being unable to obtain pieces from Germany, thought (at least for some brief period) that it could "do it on its own", before throwing in the towel?

Just another unknown.

Yes indeed, we could add that nuance to our list of speculative theories.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Chris Boonzaier]

Yes indeed, we could add that nuance to our list of speculative theories.

Best regards,
—-Norm

I think our American friends should see an obvious Parallel....


Among the most sought after Vietnam stuff are the badges made, sold and worn in Vietnam, copies of official American badges.


Ditto for Afghanistan and Iraq.


When an occupation force is in place, the locals provide...


Unless the occupation force is German... then the stuff is confiscated and is not worn....

[TOULON44]

Hello,
There is no serious reason for a French company to make German insignia without German Army orders. All the French companies that "worked" for the Germans did so under pressure and with an order, Bacqueville included, which was worth for some, big trouble to the liberation.
Chris

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

The problem is i don't know who do you call "old dealers" from Paris ? Franquez , Caravano , Optas , Hanot , Denis ... ?
Who did you talk to ? And who told you these badges were fakes ? With wich Proofs ?
I was on the market in the 70's myself : were you there ?
So everything you are talking about are "stories" actually ?
Exactly the same thing you use to dismiss these badges , as people were only using "stories" for trying to prove these badges could be "original" ?
Fallacious argument ? A fact in the story ! Different making !
I already said the pins are german style , certainly specially made to get a german Look , as they were not used for french badges , so not on the market at that time ...
Nick

It seemed that you should pick up your contacts better...
If in 2018 you didn't heard anything on other dealers (Caravano and co are burned to death), there is a small problem...
But i understand that if you "trusted" all the gibberish stories that were told to you, now you may understand that you were betrayed by all those crooks.

So now people are saying that "pins are German made".... What a bullsh*t !
So you will have French companies, during WW2, when metal use is limited, that are ordering pins from Germany for unofficial and not even ordered badges ?

This is a joke that is insulting History.

The proofs are HERE : casted, surfaced in the 70's, the golden age of fakes (especially in France), and made by Johnson, the famous crook.
So many Parisian dealers were crooks at the time, i was given a few other names in Rungis a few days ago.

I'm still waiting testimonies of all the workers and officials at the Ministère de la Marine...

See You

Vince

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hello,
There is no serious reason for a French company to make German insignia without German Army orders. All the French companies that "worked" for the Germans did so under pressure and with an order, Bacqueville included, which was worth for some, big trouble to the liberation.
Chris

That is what the popular patriotic belief is today. My wifes Grandfather was stationed in La Rochelle during the war. For a few years he was Doctor for the U-Boot Flottille at La Palice.... he was also responsible for getting goodies for the Officers Mess. Wine, Cognac, Cheese, etc etc.... he used to tell of really good relations with the suppliers. He used to travel all over drinking and buying from local suppliers... noone was forced to sell to him



Noone knew the Liberation would succeed... and all over the world businesses adapt to make money for whoever is willing to spend it.

[scotty1418]

Noone knew the Liberation would succeed... and all over the world businesses adapt to make money for whoever is willing to spend it.

That there even might be a resistance in the form of the France Libre and that the Americans MIGHT get involved wasn't even an inevitability!

One can't make assumptions about the French all hating or resisting the Germans.

I think it's been discussed on here, but the TV show 'Un Village Francais' does a great job of illustrating the impossible position for most French between working with/aiding German forces and resisting.

This particular discussion keeps going round and round for lack of new information.

To dredge up one key point:
-The badges are in a configuration that is not seen anywhere else by known French manufacturers...

[John T]

wow this thread still goes on, next thread the French never produced KM headgear

[Norm F]

To dredge up one key point:
-The badges are in a configuration that is not seen anywhere else by known French manufacturers...

Well, that has already been addressed in the comparisons in post #139 and post #184

Of course, for completeness, one still needs the burden of proof to show that the regimental pins and the KM breast eagle of similar construction were period production, but there haven't been any reservations expressed about them to date.

Best regards,
---Norm

[scotty1418]

Well, that has already been addressed in the comparisons in post #139 and post #184

Of course, for completeness, one still needs the burden of proof to show that the regimental pins and the KM breast eagle of similar construction were period production, but there haven't been any reservations expressed about them to date.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hello Norm,

With respect, they are in a completely different ballpark/world. It's like saying because they both are metal and have a pin, the construction is similar...

To break it down further, look at the metal badge manufacture with the rear crevices on these KM pieces- not in line with any French badge mfg. Look at the pin itself - thin metal wire vs the german style. Look at catch attachment, again completely different scalloped 'C' shape vs the the German L shape. Also the pin mount of the French style, again a completely different design...

[TOULON44]

Hello Chris,
I'm talking about the companies involved in the German war effort ..... the concrete for the Atlantic wall, the vehicles of the French companies, the aeronautics industry etc ...
Chris

[Norm F]

Hello Norm,

With respect, they are in a completely different ballpark/world. It's like saying because they both are metal and have a pin, the construction is similar...

To break it down further, look at the metal badge manufacture with the rear crevices on these KM pieces- not in line with any French badge mfg.

Hi Scotty,

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on the badge forensics. I'm not saying the French-made KM badges are similar to French military orders; I'm saying they're similar to French regimental pins. To me, there is apparent similarity in production methods between the French regimental pins and the "French-made" KM badges as shown here. They're both fairly crudely cast with oddly patterned semi-hollow reverses.

Of course, that begs the question when exactly were the comparable regimental pins manufactured...