New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[Leroy]

I think we need a forensic die engineer.

[Bcarver]

IMO what should put this controversy to bed is the fact that NO German vet has possessed this type of badge. If this was ever awarded we would surely see by now a photo of one being worn, or a KM vet who tells a story of being awarded this badge for....In contrast I had a friend on the Gneisenau and who had hanging on his a wall a early dagger, a Schwerin fleet badge, a first style silver WB. He told the story of being wounded when the Brits bombed the ship in Brest. Admiral Lutjens came to the hospital and awarded him both badges.

[Norm F]

IMO what should put this controversy to bed is the fact that NO German vet has possessed this type of badge. If this was ever awarded we would surely see by now a photo of one being worn, or a KM vet who tells a story of being awarded this badge for...

Hi B,

That argument indeed eliminates Option 1 in the poll for most people but not Option 2. It is a mystery to me why there are still more votes for Option 1 (official awards) than Option 2 (disallowed wartime manufacture) since even those who believe them to be French wartime manufacture have no hard evidence they were ever officially issued prior to the PK announcement effectively banning such practise.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Bcarver]

You are right. IMO some dealers and collectors really go to lengths to try to prove a piece they own is pre 45, sometimes bending logic if need be. It has always been my litmus test that if it has not been found in a German vets awarded possession or on a period photo then it didn't happen. I understand some always point to the if's and but's, but that's my guide. For me this has applied to the dotted DKIG, Souval dipping 3 EK1 and these KM badges.

[GAMS1]

Some pics of french made 40's regimental badges ...same making , same colours , same gold paint on some of them , same silver finish on some of them , same thickness on some of them , same badly finish with lines on the sides ...
Nothing to do with postwar badges french making quality after the 50's .
Most are cast , not pressed , as the KM french made badges were made .
Nick

[GAMS1]

Some more ...

[GAMS1]

Some more Mountain Rifles ...

[GAMS1]

some more ...

[Norm F]

Some pics of french made 40's regimental badges ...same making , same colours , same gold paint on some of them , same silver finish on some of them , same thickness on some of them , same badly finish with lines on the sides ...
Nothing to do with postwar badges french making quality after the 50's .
Most are cast , not pressed , as the KM french made badges were made .
Nick

Thanks Nick.

There's certainly a lot of consistency in the production of those regimental pins, just like the one in the previous post where the closeups show cast construction strikingly similar to the French-made KM badges.

A few questions:

Would you agree then that the summer uniform breast eagle shown in post #140 is also French-made from the same era? Aside from the hardware similarity, these sometimes show very similar gold paint to the French-made KM badges too.

Do you have some examples of other French pins of the era to post with the similar gold paint that you mentioned?

Do you have any examples of pins from that era that are marked by Mourgeon? Or perhaps know how and when that particular name came to be linked anecdotally with the French-made badges?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Do you have any examples of pins from that era that are marked by Mourgeon?

I can't find any Mourgeon marked items with close similarity to the KM badges (although it's always possible some of the unmarked regimentals posted earlier could be his). This is the closest I could find in marked items.

Best regards,
---Norm

[GAMS1]

The KM breast eagle is IMO a french made version , same style as the badges , same low quality zinc metal used and low quality gold colour .
The french Mourgeon badges you show are post war , 50's at least .
Regarding the gold hand painted colour , i'll see if i still have some to show !
The french regimental badges are all pre 40 and are made in a better quality metal than the war period zinc used .
Regarding markings , i've never seen a french pre-war badge stamped Mourgeon ?
Only medals and Early postwar for sure ...
I'll try to get some infos by "big" french badges specialists ?
Also i would not be that sure a french firm would have stamped its production made for the "enemy" ?
The only metal item with a logo stamping i know in the uniform branch , especially produced for the german Army , is the WH OFF pebbled button marked with the logo "Anker / Perls /Grenade "on the back ?
This logo was used by "Coinderoux", based in Ivry , closed to Paris , from the
WW1 until recently .
Nick

[GAMS1]

PS : the REF badge you posted is not military but for the "Reseau des Emetteurs Français" ( "Amateur Radio Association" ) .
I would say from the 30's ?
The quality is not that nice ? Especially on the back ?
Nick

[Philipson]

Bilbert,
I read your story and actually hoped for a minute that your story may truly help to authenticate these badges, but the more I thought about it I realized that this story has to be classified in the same category with all of the other hearsay evidence. I'm not questioning anyone's honesty, I just tend to believe in the fallibility of the human memory. I have to agree with Vince that there are many details missing in your story.

Agreed. I remember going to a vets meeting and seeing repro- items being sold at the meeting. There were cufftitles and fake SS buckles.
This was 25 years ago. No doubt some of there grandkids now swear they are real because they came from granddad from the war.

Also, it struck me how many things vets got wrong when it came to material and equipment and so.
These guys get old, and they had other things on their mind.

[Norm F]

Also i would not be that sure a french firm would have stamped its production made for the "enemy" ?

Thanks Nick. Absolutely, I’m not expecting any Mourgeon-marked German insignia; I meant have you seen any comparable Mourgeon-marked products that were pre-war or early wartime, like the Arthus Bertrand pins.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[Giel VW]

Hi B,

That argument indeed eliminates Option 1 in the poll for most people but not Option 2. It is a mystery to me why there are still more votes for Option 1 (official awards) than Option 2 (disallowed wartime manufacture) since even those who believe them to be French wartime manufacture have no hard evidence they were ever officially issued prior to the PK announcement effectively banning such practise.

Best regards,
—-Norm

That's because many people have them in their collection and don't want to loose their investment.

For me it's simple, they are casted pieces but if the production method was like that... I can't see how we can distinguish pre to post war here. Especially because they have their own design the production pieces must have been made from few "mother" pieces in the house.

Secondly, none of the badges turn up in German vet groupings, none are to be seen on period photos. For me this almost completely excludes that they were accepted by the German authorities or been into circulation there.

Thirdly, which is not made up story either, A LOT of badges turn up in American GI groupings.

I would place my money on the fact that these were produced as souvenirs for the occupation forces. If you see how much awards/badges they took with them in Germany, there would have been a high need in France too.