New Poll: The "French-made" KM badges are...

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

The badges i posted are all original pre 40 french made badges from various manufacturers but all of them are made in the same style as the KM badges ...

You are joking right ?
Even an idiot like me can see that the pins have nothing in common...
This is just ridiculous...

I don't understand how you can ignore the obvious differences, i'm not even talking of how a badge is produced (which obviously 90% of the contributors - including me - don't know a thing about it)...

The way you are trying to "prove" your point ("Mourgeon badges = KM badges) reminds me the conspirationists that are trying to prove the Ancient Astronaut theory... "the helmet looks like the ones we used in the 70's".

The more i talk with old dealers that saw/heard things decades ago, the more infos i'm getting on this scam. Due to the very restrictive defamation law in France i can't share it there, but let's say that various scams were done on KM items in France at high level, and that the whole thing "makes sense".

See You

Vince

[Chet Sowersby]

Vince,
Just take a deep breath.....You know the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

Chet

[GAMS1]

Hi,



You are joking right ?
Even an idiot like me can see that the pins have nothing in common...
This is just ridiculous...

I don't understand how you can ignore the obvious differences, i'm not even talking of how a badge is produced (which obviously 90% of the contributors - including me - don't know a thing about it)...

The way you are trying to "prove" your point ("Mourgeon badges = KM badges) reminds me the conspirationists that are trying to prove the Ancient Astronaut theory... "the helmet looks like the ones we used in the 70's".

The more i talk with old dealers that saw/heard things decades ago, the more infos i'm getting on this scam. Due to the very restrictive defamation law in France i can't share it there, but let's say that various scams were done on KM items in France at high level, and that the whole thing "makes sense".

See You

Vince

Come down guy ... i was just comparing the global making in the same style as the french regimental badges ? i never spoke about the pins which are obviously cast also ( which is not a problem for me ... ) to have a more german style !
I never spoke about Mourgeon because in France nobody is sure who really made them ! But almost if not all all "old" educated collectors i know or i met have been laughing on the so called scientifical expertise leading to dismiss these badges !
You can talk about "scams" it's your right , but you are very far away from the "truth" being here in France ?
Worn period ? no real proofs are existing until now . But we all learn everyday in this Hobby,don't you ?
Billibert "story" could be a beginning of the US side ?
On the french side there's so many Testimonies on this whole story , from different parts of France and not only "Crooks"from Paris as you always pretend !
I was personnally on the "Market" in the 70's and these badges were already present , not mint but already with a natural 30 years patina ...
Were you around ?
These badges were not appreciated by french collectors because the quality making was so low with a bad looking gold colour and you still had many many original german made badges to find at that time !
Nick

[Norm F]

Both sides of this discussion tend to get unnecessarily confrontational here at times.

Confrontational phrases to avoid in this discussion:
"You must be joking" since that's obviously not the case
"Almost all are laughing at the scientific expertise" also not true

We're not Twitter here -- please avoid denigration of the other side as a form of argument.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with scientific scrutiny of the badges, nor with listening to anecdotal evidence. How one chooses to interpret the data is to each his own.

Valid and reproducible scientific scrutiny proves these badges to be cast in a porous die of some sort quite differently from the German method, and the main pins are also cast. Interpretation of the anecdotal evidence and the formation of a theory must rationalize those observations, not ignore them.

So the working theory for those who accept these badges as wartime is that this was a valid French method of cast production in the 1930s and 40s (not unlike the attached regimental badges which are claimed to be pre-war production).

Those opposed feel that this method of production was unlikely to be used in France in the 1930s-40s, and is more like what we see in post-war reproductions.

What we can all agree upon is 1) they could not meet official approval by the PK and 2) not one of us involved in this discussion was there at the time.

Best regards,
---Norm

[GAMS1]

"Almost all are laughing at the scientific expertise"

I was only talking about the "old" generation really educated french collectors i've been meeting these last months and after some discussion on this particular subject .
These badges are original pre 40 french regimental badges,all of them .
Repros do exist of course , but are not made like these , made in a different way , more modern .
That's why i wanted to show everybody one of the typical french technical way of making badges pre 1940 , to really compare with the KM french made badges !
And not to compare french made KM badges with german made KM badges !
Interesting , isn't it ?
Nick

[Norm F]

Interesting , isn't it ?
Nick

Yes, indeed it is.

Best regards,
---Norm

[kevin john]

Hello ,i am not a Kriegsmarine collector [yet],so i have no dog in this fight,but people who do have a dog in the fight are the 1. old educated French collectors who may have a stash of these items they want to pass onto their family and do not want them to be proved post war made.2. collectors who may have one or two and who will find it hard to sell them on if proven postwar, 3. Dealers who have sold them previously and maybe still have some in stock to sell,i know that everybody who buys collectables wants them to be original but the sad fact is that there are a lot of post war made items out there,i must admit that when i first read the beginning of this thread i voted for made during the war without authorisation but i believe the scientific evidence has together with other evidence proved that they were not made before 1945 and if i could change my vote now i would Kevin.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

That's why i wanted to show everybody one of the typical french technical way of making badges pre 1940 , to really compare with the KM french made badges !
And not to compare french made KM badges with german made KM badges !
Interesting , isn't it ?
Nick

The problem is that the pins of the French period badges don't look anything like the Fakeville badges... Can we move on ?
And that saying "Fakeville badges are different from German ones" is a very fallacious argument to imply that they may be period made.

Just ask old dealers around you. You will hear very very bad stories... People are starting to talk, people who sold and saw many scams.

See You

Vince

[Leroy]

It's time to admit that 1.) (as is to be expected) French-made badges are different from German-made badges, and 2.) all we have on these badges is "stories" concerning their origin.

IMO, in the absence of real documentation such as documents or photos, we will never put this discussion to rest.

Give it up.

[Norm F]

The problem is that the pins of the French period badges don't look anything like the Fakeville badges...

Well, the previous illustrations and discussions have shown that the hinge construction and catch are very similar to other French-made products so it's only the cast wide pin that's unique to these badges.

It's time to admit that 1.) (as is to be expected) French-made badges are different from German-made badges, and 2.) all we have on these badges is "stories" concerning their origin.

IMO, in the absence of real documentation such as documents or photos, we will never put this discussion to rest.

Give it up.

Agree. While we welcome discussion and exchange of ideas, there's no point in reiterative posts from the same people without new perspectives. Redundant posts will be deleted to keep the thread relevant and informative.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Yubari]

many medals were produced in Sudetland - former Czechoslovakia and people also consider them as German..

[Norm F]

many medals were produced in Sudetenland - former Czechoslovakia and people also consider them as German..

But as discussed in the older thread, that's not relevant to the French-made badges. Gablonz was effectively part of Germany at that time with German culture; medal production there was sanctioned by the PK, used German methods and firms were assigned LDO and PK numbers. Quite different from occupied France where commerce in German awards by foreign companies was specifically disallowed by the PK.

It's always worthwhile to take the time to read the two pinned threads before posting something new.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think that in the absence of a detailed study of French 1930s-40s badges we are very much in the dark.


It is obvious that our French members are split into two camps and IMHO nothing short of a time machine will convince either camp. Each camp is just one step away from insulting the virtue of the others camp's sister in an argument about badges.



For me so far it has only been proven that french and German badges are made in different ways.



If these were made in 1944 or 1974 has not been proved.


I still think there is a possibility that these were made as "illegal" commercial copies during the war.


I have a hard time believing a 1970s faker would fake file marks and make boxes... i remember in the late 70s as a lad that even badges made of lead were bought by uninformed collectors....

[Joey Charles]

french made

The only thing I can say on this subject is I have been collecting 51 years and bought most of my items from adds in local papers and work friends who had brought back medals badges etc.In that time I have obtained many km badges and insignia,I have never encountered a french made badge from these adds or people yet.The first time I saw them was in the 1970s,crap

[Chris Boonzaier]

The only thing I can say on this subject is I have been collecting 51 years and bought most of my items from adds in local papers and work friends who had brought back medals badges etc.In that time I have obtained many km badges and insignia,I have never encountered a french made badge from these adds or people yet.The first time I saw them was in the 1970s,crap

I think the theory is they were stockpiled until about then?