I agree, too! However, I find it strange that frontline soldiers choose to serve in camps. Dr. Mengele, for exampel, served in "Wiking", was wounded and not fit for frontline duty anymore... BUT of course he could have refused to serve in Auschwitz! But perhaps Mengele wasn´t the best exampel.
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Great Photos at Holocaust Museum
Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
-
Originally posted by Gary Wood View Postcome on then lets see it!
cheers
Gary
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=25859
Sorry Rob
Cheers, Ade.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Adrian Stevenson View Post
Ade- I will never tire from looking at that dagger or cease to be amazed at the history attached to it
Rob
Comment
-
Well it's the same with Hitler and his entourage of close associates. People were criticizing the movie THE DOWNFALL because they were afraid that audiences would feel sorry for these people in their final hours in the Fuhrerbunker. Believe me, the only people I felt sorry for were the Goebbel's children, the civilians of Berlin and the soldiers that were fighting the Soviets all around the crumbling Reich, many of them not even Germans, but foreigners. And Hitler and Goebbels and the lot didn't care one iota about these people... the German people failed themselves and Hitler (he said) and therefore don't themselves deserve to survive. He sent out orders to destroy everything so not even the Germans would survive. These people cared nothing for anybody but themselves.
These pictures are interesting indeed. But what camp are they from, and what years? Things changed significantly over the years that the SS ruled the camps (1934-1945).
There's a lot to think about here.
Bob
Comment
-
Dough K., right words.
This issues is very old and will still come up again in the world history as it comes up every decades just with other names and nations. Just can say "Ganz normale Männer" like the name of the book of the Police Bat. 101. A book recommendation for people who just don't get it.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Bobwirtz View PostThese pictures are interesting indeed. But what camp are they from, and what years? Things changed significantly over the years that the SS ruled the camps (1934-1945).
Hi Robert, excellent book. Highly recommended by me too.
Cheers, Ade.
Comment
-
Agreed top 100% !
Lasse
Originally posted by Doug Kenwright View PostWhy do we always assume that people who do the 'jobs' or acts we find distasteful are inhumane monsters, devoid of the need to have human interaction or pleasure?
By doing so, we deny the fact that they were mere mortals with all their faults, and not some otherworldly embodiment of devils incarnate
The phrase 'the banality of evil' fits to a 't' the actions of those who perpetuate and enable actions such as the holocaust, in which large numbers of otherwise ordinary people assisted in the bureaucratic challenge of catologuing state sponsored genocide.
Perhaps you would rather see them drunkenly carousing, celebrating the fact that they had been killing Jews, or morosely sitting around a table reflecting on what they had done that day? I am sure there was an element of that, to what extent, we get glimpses of from time to time in the words of those who participated...
I find it curious that pictures sicken some , and yet you collect the various totems of the people who so distress you..one would think that such objects would revile you to such an extent that the mere thought of possessing them would make you as sick ?..
Perhaps these pictures serve as a reminder, that save various circumstances of heritage, birth and nationality, people just like us (with all our good traits as well as weaknesses..) could act in the same manner under the same circumstances, whether we like it or not.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Bobwirtz View PostWell it's the same with Hitler and his entourage of close associates. People were criticizing the movie THE DOWNFALL because they were afraid that audiences would feel sorry for these people in their final hours in the Fuhrerbunker. Believe me, the only people I felt sorry for were the Goebbel's children, the civilians of Berlin and the soldiers that were fighting the Soviets all around the crumbling Reich, many of them not even Germans, but foreigners. And Hitler and Goebbels and the lot didn't care one iota about these people... the German people failed themselves and Hitler (he said) and therefore don't themselves deserve to survive. He sent out orders to destroy everything so not even the Germans would survive. These people cared nothing for anybody but themselves.
These pictures are interesting indeed. But what camp are they from, and what years? Things changed significantly over the years that the SS ruled the camps (1934-1945).
There's a lot to think about here.
Bob
Comment
-
Originally posted by Doug Kenwright View PostWhy do we always assume that people who do the 'jobs' or acts we find distasteful are inhumane monsters, devoid of the need to have human interaction or pleasure?
By doing so, we deny the fact that they were mere mortals with all their faults, and not some otherworldly embodiment of devils incarnate
The phrase 'the banality of evil' fits to a 't' the actions of those who perpetuate and enable actions such as the holocaust, in which large numbers of otherwise ordinary people assisted in the bureaucratic challenge of catologuing state sponsored genocide.
Perhaps you would rather see them drunkenly carousing, celebrating the fact that they had been killing Jews, or morosely sitting around a table reflecting on what they had done that day? I am sure there was an element of that, to what extent, we get glimpses of from time to time in the words of those who participated...
I find it curious that pictures sicken some , and yet you collect the various totems of the people who so distress you..one would think that such objects would revile you to such an extent that the mere thought of possessing them would make you as sick ?..
Perhaps these pictures serve as a reminder, that save various circumstances of heritage, birth and nationality, people just like us (with all our good traits as well as weaknesses..) could act in the same manner under the same circumstances, whether we like it or not.
One should bear in mind that many people would find us sick who collect nazi items!
True words from Bob Wirtz as well!
"Felix" - N. Hansson
Comment
-
Originally posted by Doug Kenwright View PostI find it curious that pictures sicken some , and yet you collect the various totems of the people who so distress you..one would think that such objects would revile you to such an extent that the mere thought of possessing them would make you as sick ?...
Originally posted by Doug Kenwright View PostPerhaps these pictures serve as a reminder, that save various circumstances of heritage, birth and nationality, people just like us (with all our good traits as well as weaknesses..) could act in the same manner under the same circumstances, whether we like it or not.
Comment
-
Originally posted by bwanek1 View PostI, for one, do not and would not collect anything with a direct connection to a concentration camp or anyone involved in the atrocities perpetrated there.
Perhaps many more than we would like (or care to admit) among us might be capable of such things. However, none of these people are "just like us;" certainly, I can tell you that they are nothing like me.
I wonder how you feel about having so called Dachau insignias in your collection? They do have a direct connection to a concentration camp. By your quote I understand that they are a no no in your collection? Tunics manufactured in Ravensbruck and Buchenwald have an even more direct connetion to the KZ system. I guess you would not want one of these tunics in your collection?
If you found out that one of you metal visor cap insignias had provenance from lets say Dachau would that mean you would sell it as fast as possible?
This also means that if you found a vet with a nice and rare version of a visor cap insignia, but the vet claimed he took if from a KZ camp guard, and offered it to you for USD 50 you would refuse to buy it?
And lastly, perhaps I make it too personal, it would be interesting to know if you regard collectors who collect things from TK and from the KZ system as sick?
Best regards,
"Felix" - N. Hansson
Comment
-
Originally posted by Felix View PostI wonder how you feel about having so called Dachau insignias in your collection? They do have a direct connection to a concentration camp. By your quote I understand that they are a no no in your collection? Tunics manufactured in Ravensbruck and Buchenwald have an even more direct connetion to the KZ system. I guess you would not want one of these tunics in your collection?
Originally posted by Felix View PostIf you found out that one of you metal visor cap insignias had provenance from lets say Dachau would that mean you would sell it as fast as possible?
Originally posted by Felix View PostThis also means that if you found a vet with a nice and rare version of a visor cap insignia, but the vet claimed he took if from a KZ camp guard, and offered it to you for USD 50 you would refuse to buy it??
Originally posted by Felix View PostAnd lastly, perhaps I make it too personal, it would be interesting to know if you regard collectors who collect things from TK and from the KZ system as sick??
That being said, if someone were to tell me that they collected KZ-related items and that their personal motivation were due to some morbid fascination or some racial or other hatred, I would certainly reserve the right to disagree with them and their...I'll say it...sick ideas.
Comment
-
Hi Felix, this is an interesting moral question and one I would like to answer, given I own an item from man who was a major war criminal implicated with the camps.
I came to own my SS dagger before I researched any of the original owners history. Would I go out and buy today an item I knew was owned by a camp guard or official? Probably not.
Does it bother me owning something that belonged to one of them: yes and no. I don't like what he stood for, (as no one here does) but owning it and knowing who he was serves as a big reminder of what happened to all the poor souls who died as a result of the camp system.
Who knows where that sleeve eagle, cap badge, belt buckle really came from? We might like to think it was worn by a member of the regular Waffen SS and not a member of the SS-TV, but it is impossible to tell.
Cheers, Ade.
Comment
-
Brad;
Thanks for your answer and I respect your opinion.
As a side note I purchased a SS Brigadefuhrer collar tab a few days back from a young man in Stockholm. The young man was given the tab from his grandmother who was down in Germany during the war or shortly after the war. (I will get the full story after he has asked his mother about the details)
This young man felt this piece of insignia stood for evilness and wanted to part with very fast, even though it was part of his own family history. I did him the favour and purchased it for a fair price.
By my questions about morality I would like to find out how we collectors think about these isssues. Appearently its divided. I allready know that most "normal" people would consider the whole bunch of third reich collectors as sick. In the field of third reich collectiong there are differences as well. Some fields are more accepted and pure and some are considered dirty and bad.
However if one is going to have a clear conscience one should not forget that during the history of military victorys they were not that glorious as it might seem. In most cases the captured soldiers and civilians did face horrible fates. The conditions for prisoners in general, military or civilian, were very cruel, gently speking. Few notes have been done about this than during the last hundreds of years.
From the victories of Djinghis Kahn to the wars in medival Europe to the killings of the american indians to the first "genocide" in Armenia by the turks to the genocide by the nazis. Not to foget the massive slaughtering by many millions by the so called representatives of the people, or Communists. There are even attrocities committed by the allied, like the bombings of Dresden and the "kill all nazis-take no prisoners" attitude and the conditions for the german prisoners of war. Some issues are appearently "hotter" than others.
Those who feel they have a clear conscience are entitled to throw the first stone.
"Felix" - N. Hansson
Comment
Users Viewing this Thread
Collapse
There are currently 9 users online. 0 members and 9 guests.
Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.
Comment