Great Photos at Holocaust Museum

[Dr. Strangelove]

Felix

I am very sorry for your loss.

[Robert H]

There is really nothing to add to the words from Don Doering, its just disturbing thats all.

[Felix]

I am very sorry for your loss.

Thanks Doc! I appreciate it! Youre a true friend!

[bwanek1]

This thread has mixed together several very different issues. I will attempt briefly to separate them once again to offer my thoughts on each.

Issue 1: It was observed that, in some of the photos, concentration camp guards are seen laughing and carrying on, presumably short hours after having been directly and personally involved in the atrocities of the holocaust.

I don’t care what side of the war you were on, seeing people capable of acting in such a seemingly carefree manner after having at least witnessed, if not participated in, unspeakably inhuman acts should be somewhat troubling and at least minimally disturbing to anyone of reasonable sensibility.

Issue 2: I stated that I wished to have nothing to do with anything related to the atrocities committed at the concentration camps or those who committed them.

In response it was suggested that anyone such as I who finds owning items related to the holocaust morally objectionable should have nothing to do with anything from that entire period in history.

To this, I remind that individual and everyone else that I pass no judgment on those who do not see owning such items as distasteful as I do. That is simply my personal choice regarding what I choose to collect and I respect others’ right to make their own choices regarding what they collect.

However, I do also find it necessary to point out that the concentration camps had nothing to do with the war. Though they existed during the war and were staffed by many who had fought in the war, they were not part of any legitimate military operation. Far from being a “war crime,” the holocaust was a crime against humanity.

Issue 3: The relative immorality of various acts on both sides of the war is being debated.

I find this ridiculous. Criminal acts by opposing sides do not negate each other, nor does a worse crime committed by one side remove the guilt of a lesser crime by the other. It is like two siblings who are facing punishment by their parents for misbehaving pointing at each other and saying, “Oh yeah, well he…” as if pointing out worse behavior by the other will lessen their own guilt. It doesn’t matter in the slightest. Any criminal or immoral act must be weighed on its own against basic moral principals, not against the immoral acts of others on a relative scale.

I choose to not collect anything related to the immoral acts committed in the concentration camps. I would likewise not wish to possess anything belonging to Americans who were known to have committed atrocities. I remind you all that I already pointed out that I found the Dachau guard’s insignia which I was offered to be disturbing both because they belonged to someone involved in the inhuman acts which took place there and because they had been taken by an American who murdered him in an illegal and immoral act of vengeance.

[bnz. 42]

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Statue

That is a terrible statue. It lacks proportion, shape and several other details. And if that was not bad enough it has tiny balls. Maybe I just hate it because it is post 45.

[Don D.]

Felix, I have not attacked you. I merely pointed out that your nation, though technically neutral helped the Nazi regime survive. So did Switzerland for that matter through their secrative banking laws. My point is you cannot focus on one event in history because you usually only see a symptom or effect. You have to look farther for the cause. Hitler wasn't born with a plant to eliminate the jews anymore than Bomber Harris dreampt of burning Dresden as a boy. They were all led down those roads through events in life. To be sure, all wars are filled with horrible events for those who are there. That is why war is so terrible and yet we as a species never learn. Every country has had their time. Even Sweden was a world power at one time. How do you think they got that way? By being nice? Not according to my Western Civilization classes. They used gunpowder and steel. That is history. I just happen to be able to step back and view it without emotion. I had family that fought on both sides. My great grand father was run out of Germany in 1935 for being a union organizer. His brothers dissappeared on the Russian front. A bullet or shell may have been the effect that left them there but it was Hitler's order to invade that caused it.

Wars don't generally start off nasty because everyone thinks they are chivilrous, heroic affairs. After being in the mud and blood for a bit those notions leave and you realize that if you are going to make it home you have to take it serious. People end up doing things they never would have done in civilian life. Some ends up being pretty horrible. In the end each person has to live with it. The nastiness tends to escalate the longer the war goes on. You can see that in every war in recent history.

Lastly, we are talking about events that happened long ago and most of the participants are dead. No one should feel guilty for the actions of those people. They made decisions and took the actions they thought they had to. Todays Germans should not feel guilty anymore for the war than I should feel guilty for slavery or wiping out the Indians. It is history and we should learn from it.

[BenVK]

Looking at some of these photos of them laughing and joking "after work" makes me feel quite sick..

Interesting debate but the fundamental question regarding some of these photos for me is, how can anyone not find them a little disturbing at the very least? Those happy smiling people are the ones who helped run Auschwitz for pity's sake. Speculating on the reasons why and how these human beings ended up working there is all very well but I would hope that the first instinct of everyone here is to feel deeply uneasy as you look at them.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Whatever

Blah Blah Blah, I just want their uniforms !!! Oh and Hats. Did somebody say Swedish Steell? Just what did you think Tiger Tanks are made from?

[Bobwirtz]

Does anyone have any idea if these 'happy' people in the picture aren't 'drunk out of their minds' and probably had to be most of the time to do that kind of work? I'm not making excuses for these people because what they did was horrible but I agree that we must treat these and others like them as human beings, which they are, not demons risen from Hell and Satan. Humans have this in them to do such deeds if not checked. Man never learns from history, even when the mistakes of the past are well learned... it's just our nature!

Bob

[Stephen Stout]

Does anyone have any idea if these 'happy' people in the picture aren't 'drunk out of their minds' and probably had to be most of the time to do that kind of work? I'm not making excuses for these people because what they did was horrible but I agree that we must treat these and others like them as human beings, which they are, not demons risen from Hell and Satan. Humans have this in them to do such deeds if not checked. Man never learns from history, even when the mistakes of the past are well learned... it's just our nature!

Bob

Well as long as they were hung or shot for their crimes in the end, I'm happy .

But now lets be serious there are no good guys on either side of a war, just different perspectives. Sure according to the SS what happened was perfectly moral because to their standards the Jews were not human beings. Just like how we have abortions and embryonic stem-cell research, because a child inside a mother's womb is not a human being. The only question I ask as Devil's advocate WHAT IS A HUMAN BEING?

[Stephen Stout]

Interesting debate but the fundamental question regarding some of these photos for me is, how can anyone not find them a little disturbing at the very least? Those happy smiling people are the ones who helped run Auschwitz for pity's sake. Speculating on the reasons why and how these human beings ended up working there is all very well but I would hope that the first instinct of everyone here is to feel deeply uneasy as you look at them.

I agree, it literally brings chills down my back!

[Fritz]

Just to clarify things. Raping German fraus (within 3 days) was an official call from Zhukov in order to make Germans feel being "Masters of the World" better, and not because Russian soldiers were sex-maniacs.

....Can it get any more naive than that? "Attention soldier! Here is your order: Rape german women and as you are already up see if you can find some polish, czech, slowak, ukrainian, esthonian, latvian, lithuanian, finnish, hungarian, romanian, austrian etc. women as well. You have three days to accomplish your mission!" "Tag dodshna, tawarish capitan, dlja stalina!!"

HEEELLLLLOOOOO!!! The red army frontoviks commited rapes all over eastern europe, not "only" in germany. And also the rapes commited in germany were a pure warcrime and nothing else. Go find out how many of their soldiers the US Army has condemned to death after they were raping french women during the normandy campaign. Aparently the GIs had no such orders.


Red army soldiers started raping german women when they first entered germany ( they have raped many women in other nations before, never forget that! ) and they stoped short after the downfall of Berlin....So you are saying that the red army went from east prussia to Berlin within three days? Now that is new to me.....

Cheers!

Fritz

[besslein]

....Can it get any more naive than that? "Attention soldier! Here is your order: Rape german women and as you are already up see if you can find some polish, czech, slowak, ukrainian, esthonian, latvian, lithuanian, finnish, hungarian, romanian, austrian etc. women as well. You have three days to accomplish your mission!" "Tag dodshna, tawarish capitan, dlja stalina!!"

HEEELLLLLOOOOO!!! The red army frontoviks commited rapes all over eastern europe, not "only" in germany. And also the rapes commited in germany were a pure warcrime and nothing else. Go find out how many of their soldiers the US Army has condemned to death after they were raping french women during the normandy campaign. Aparently the GIs had no such orders.


Red army soldiers started raping german women when they first entered germany ( they have raped many women in other nations before, never forget that! ) and they stoped short after the downfall of Berlin....So you are saying that the red army went from east prussia to Berlin within three days? Now that is new to me.....

Cheers!

Fritz

agree,you are right Fritz
I still remember when my grandmother told me that when russian comes she
was 3 days and nights in wood(becose she dont want mett this crimianals) ,and
it was winter 1945 in east Poland!!!!!!!!

[Fritz]

Felix, I have not attacked you. I merely pointed out that your nation, though technically neutral helped the Nazi regime survive.

Don,
I think that Coca-Cola Germany was a company owned and operated by the SS long before the war started. And I think that Ford produced for the nazi army in large quantities in the cologne factories ... also Opel
( which is a GM brand ).... There are more examples... Don't get me wrong I get your point but I think it is not fair to tell Felix that companies from his country made money with the nazis when other countries made the same thing even those that would fight against germany. So one could say a Opel Blitz (GM) transported the amo that was supposed to kill GIs....that is ironic. I think Sweden was lucky and smart enough to stay out of that mess as good as they could and they didn't shot at anyone since a while...well, except of some (soviet or US???) submarines....

Cheers

Fritz