Great Photos at Holocaust Museum

[Ludwig]

I agree, too! However, I find it strange that frontline soldiers choose to serve in camps. Dr. Mengele, for exampel, served in "Wiking", was wounded and not fit for frontline duty anymore... BUT of course he could have refused to serve in Auschwitz! But perhaps Mengele wasn´t the best exampel.

[Adrian Stevenson]

come on then lets see it!
cheers
Gary

Hi Gary, here it is:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=25859

Sorry Rob

Cheers, Ade.

[Panzer Rob]

Hi Gary, here it is:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=25859

Sorry Rob

Cheers, Ade.

Ade- I will never tire from looking at that dagger or cease to be amazed at the history attached to it

Rob

[Bobwirtz]

Well it's the same with Hitler and his entourage of close associates. People were criticizing the movie THE DOWNFALL because they were afraid that audiences would feel sorry for these people in their final hours in the Fuhrerbunker. Believe me, the only people I felt sorry for were the Goebbel's children, the civilians of Berlin and the soldiers that were fighting the Soviets all around the crumbling Reich, many of them not even Germans, but foreigners. And Hitler and Goebbels and the lot didn't care one iota about these people... the German people failed themselves and Hitler (he said) and therefore don't themselves deserve to survive. He sent out orders to destroy everything so not even the Germans would survive. These people cared nothing for anybody but themselves.

These pictures are interesting indeed. But what camp are they from, and what years? Things changed significantly over the years that the SS ruled the camps (1934-1945).

There's a lot to think about here.

Bob

[Robert H]

Dough K., right words.

This issues is very old and will still come up again in the world history as it comes up every decades just with other names and nations. Just can say "Ganz normale Männer" like the name of the book of the Police Bat. 101. A book recommendation for people who just don't get it.

[Adrian Stevenson]

These pictures are interesting indeed. But what camp are they from, and what years? Things changed significantly over the years that the SS ruled the camps (1934-1945).

Hi Bob, they are from Auschwitz. I cannot recall the dates exactly, but they date from mid to late war.

Hi Robert, excellent book. Highly recommended by me too.

Cheers, Ade.

[Lasse Kongo]

Agreed top 100% !

Lasse

Why do we always assume that people who do the 'jobs' or acts we find distasteful are inhumane monsters, devoid of the need to have human interaction or pleasure?

By doing so, we deny the fact that they were mere mortals with all their faults, and not some otherworldly embodiment of devils incarnate

The phrase 'the banality of evil' fits to a 't' the actions of those who perpetuate and enable actions such as the holocaust, in which large numbers of otherwise ordinary people assisted in the bureaucratic challenge of catologuing state sponsored genocide.

Perhaps you would rather see them drunkenly carousing, celebrating the fact that they had been killing Jews, or morosely sitting around a table reflecting on what they had done that day? I am sure there was an element of that, to what extent, we get glimpses of from time to time in the words of those who participated...

I find it curious that pictures sicken some , and yet you collect the various totems of the people who so distress you..one would think that such objects would revile you to such an extent that the mere thought of possessing them would make you as sick ?..

Perhaps these pictures serve as a reminder, that save various circumstances of heritage, birth and nationality, people just like us (with all our good traits as well as weaknesses..) could act in the same manner under the same circumstances, whether we like it or not.

[Ludwig]

Well it's the same with Hitler and his entourage of close associates. People were criticizing the movie THE DOWNFALL because they were afraid that audiences would feel sorry for these people in their final hours in the Fuhrerbunker. Believe me, the only people I felt sorry for were the Goebbel's children, the civilians of Berlin and the soldiers that were fighting the Soviets all around the crumbling Reich, many of them not even Germans, but foreigners. And Hitler and Goebbels and the lot didn't care one iota about these people... the German people failed themselves and Hitler (he said) and therefore don't themselves deserve to survive. He sent out orders to destroy everything so not even the Germans would survive. These people cared nothing for anybody but themselves.

These pictures are interesting indeed. But what camp are they from, and what years? Things changed significantly over the years that the SS ruled the camps (1934-1945).

There's a lot to think about here.

Bob

I guess that politicians are all the same. No matter nationality, colour of their skin or political direction. Even if they were serious at start, they soon will be corrupt in some way. North- and South-American Indians, farmers in the Soviet empire, Jews, Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Chinese... Where do I find that symbol for infinity?

[Felix]

Why do we always assume that people who do the 'jobs' or acts we find distasteful are inhumane monsters, devoid of the need to have human interaction or pleasure?

By doing so, we deny the fact that they were mere mortals with all their faults, and not some otherworldly embodiment of devils incarnate

The phrase 'the banality of evil' fits to a 't' the actions of those who perpetuate and enable actions such as the holocaust, in which large numbers of otherwise ordinary people assisted in the bureaucratic challenge of catologuing state sponsored genocide.

Perhaps you would rather see them drunkenly carousing, celebrating the fact that they had been killing Jews, or morosely sitting around a table reflecting on what they had done that day? I am sure there was an element of that, to what extent, we get glimpses of from time to time in the words of those who participated...

I find it curious that pictures sicken some , and yet you collect the various totems of the people who so distress you..one would think that such objects would revile you to such an extent that the mere thought of possessing them would make you as sick ?..

Perhaps these pictures serve as a reminder, that save various circumstances of heritage, birth and nationality, people just like us (with all our good traits as well as weaknesses..) could act in the same manner under the same circumstances, whether we like it or not.

I totally agree!

One should bear in mind that many people would find us sick who collect nazi items!

True words from Bob Wirtz as well!

"Felix" - N. Hansson

[bwanek1]

I find it curious that pictures sicken some , and yet you collect the various totems of the people who so distress you..one would think that such objects would revile you to such an extent that the mere thought of possessing them would make you as sick ?...

I, for one, do not and would not collect anything with a direct connection to a concentration camp or anyone involved in the atrocities perpetrated there.

Perhaps these pictures serve as a reminder, that save various circumstances of heritage, birth and nationality, people just like us (with all our good traits as well as weaknesses..) could act in the same manner under the same circumstances, whether we like it or not.

Perhaps many more than we would like (or care to admit) among us might be capable of such things. However, none of these people are "just like us;" certainly, I can tell you that they are nothing like me.

[Ian Hulley]

Being halfway through reading Yitzhak Arad's 'Belzec,Sobibor & Treblinka' I couldn't agree more with Brad.

Ian.

[Felix]

I, for one, do not and would not collect anything with a direct connection to a concentration camp or anyone involved in the atrocities perpetrated there.

Perhaps many more than we would like (or care to admit) among us might be capable of such things. However, none of these people are "just like us;" certainly, I can tell you that they are nothing like me.

Brad; I respect your knowledge and opinions and you know that. However I find the distinction you make quite interesting. I will ask you a few questions and you may respond if you wish to do so. Hereby, please understand me correctly, that I do not want to start a fight with you. Im rather interested in different collectors attitude on morality issues when collecting third reich items and in particular SS.

I wonder how you feel about having so called Dachau insignias in your collection? They do have a direct connection to a concentration camp. By your quote I understand that they are a no no in your collection? Tunics manufactured in Ravensbruck and Buchenwald have an even more direct connetion to the KZ system. I guess you would not want one of these tunics in your collection?

If you found out that one of you metal visor cap insignias had provenance from lets say Dachau would that mean you would sell it as fast as possible?
This also means that if you found a vet with a nice and rare version of a visor cap insignia, but the vet claimed he took if from a KZ camp guard, and offered it to you for USD 50 you would refuse to buy it?

And lastly, perhaps I make it too personal, it would be interesting to know if you regard collectors who collect things from TK and from the KZ system as sick?

Best regards,
"Felix" - N. Hansson

[bwanek1]

I wonder how you feel about having so called Dachau insignias in your collection? They do have a direct connection to a concentration camp. By your quote I understand that they are a no no in your collection? Tunics manufactured in Ravensbruck and Buchenwald have an even more direct connetion to the KZ system. I guess you would not want one of these tunics in your collection?

There are NO Dachau pieces in my collection.

If you found out that one of you metal visor cap insignias had provenance from lets say Dachau would that mean you would sell it as fast as possible?

Yes. I want nothing connected to the events which took place there or any other KZ.

This also means that if you found a vet with a nice and rare version of a visor cap insignia, but the vet claimed he took if from a KZ camp guard, and offered it to you for USD 50 you would refuse to buy it??

Yes. Something similar to that has happened to me (only from a vet's son) and I did refuse to buy it. In that particular case, I found it doubly distasteful, as the story was that the item had not only come from a Dachau camp guard's uniform, but that the American GI (understandably deeply disturbed at what he had seen in and around the camp) had executed the unarmed and surrendering camp guard on the spot.

And lastly, perhaps I make it too personal, it would be interesting to know if you regard collectors who collect things from TK and from the KZ system as sick??

I can only speak for how I feel. Though I cannot understand the appeal of such myself, there are others who would make the same comment regarding any SS-related items or even anything related to the TR period. Therefore, I pass no judgment on anyone else simply based on what they collect.

That being said, if someone were to tell me that they collected KZ-related items and that their personal motivation were due to some morbid fascination or some racial or other hatred, I would certainly reserve the right to disagree with them and their...I'll say it...sick ideas.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Felix, this is an interesting moral question and one I would like to answer, given I own an item from man who was a major war criminal implicated with the camps.

I came to own my SS dagger before I researched any of the original owners history. Would I go out and buy today an item I knew was owned by a camp guard or official? Probably not.

Does it bother me owning something that belonged to one of them: yes and no. I don't like what he stood for, (as no one here does) but owning it and knowing who he was serves as a big reminder of what happened to all the poor souls who died as a result of the camp system.

Who knows where that sleeve eagle, cap badge, belt buckle really came from? We might like to think it was worn by a member of the regular Waffen SS and not a member of the SS-TV, but it is impossible to tell.

Cheers, Ade.

[Felix]

Brad;
Thanks for your answer and I respect your opinion.

As a side note I purchased a SS Brigadefuhrer collar tab a few days back from a young man in Stockholm. The young man was given the tab from his grandmother who was down in Germany during the war or shortly after the war. (I will get the full story after he has asked his mother about the details)
This young man felt this piece of insignia stood for evilness and wanted to part with very fast, even though it was part of his own family history. I did him the favour and purchased it for a fair price.

By my questions about morality I would like to find out how we collectors think about these isssues. Appearently its divided. I allready know that most "normal" people would consider the whole bunch of third reich collectors as sick. In the field of third reich collectiong there are differences as well. Some fields are more accepted and pure and some are considered dirty and bad.

However if one is going to have a clear conscience one should not forget that during the history of military victorys they were not that glorious as it might seem. In most cases the captured soldiers and civilians did face horrible fates. The conditions for prisoners in general, military or civilian, were very cruel, gently speking. Few notes have been done about this than during the last hundreds of years.

From the victories of Djinghis Kahn to the wars in medival Europe to the killings of the american indians to the first "genocide" in Armenia by the turks to the genocide by the nazis. Not to foget the massive slaughtering by many millions by the so called representatives of the people, or Communists. There are even attrocities committed by the allied, like the bombings of Dresden and the "kill all nazis-take no prisoners" attitude and the conditions for the german prisoners of war. Some issues are appearently "hotter" than others.

Those who feel they have a clear conscience are entitled to throw the first stone.

"Felix" - N. Hansson