And How About This Dream.......m43 Ss Pz Cap At E-stand

[Perry Floyd]

Me as well

[billbert]

As its presented..No thanks ....Billbert

[Gary Wood]

unless there is some "Forum bylaw" prohibiting it, what say you all we take a "vote."

Bryon,
no there is nothing in the rules that say you can not take a vote we even have a poll option so that would be classed as voting, although starting another thread with just a poll question would get more votes
cheers
gary

[Mike Davis]

[SJP]

Keep looking.

[90th Light]

Hello again, I am trying to learn from this thread and I am becoming increasingly confused. I have had a couple of emails from two very advanced collectors who say they can see nothing wrong with the M43 that started this thread. They are both authors of books which are quoted on this forum. Both refuse to debate on the forum however and do not want to be named. They say if the forum members know best then it must be wrong because the forum says but they would both buy it..

Like I said, I am confused. Can some-one please tell me in plain english what is so wrong with this cap. I am happy to accept it is wrong but why are those passing a death sentence on it so certain of their facts?

Going crazy, Chris

[Bob Coleman]

Chris-
Please reread all of the comments in this lengthy thread and I think you will find your answer. There are implied and some specific facts stated. You must also remember that our judgement is being made solely from the images posted. If the pictures accurately represent the hat, I would then have concerns.
Bob

[ReichsHeini]

Well there ya go again - all opinions and no information.
Tony Scanlon is the only guy who provided you with any information at all besides the "not for me" guys.
I think Tony is right on with his stated facts and until someone else points out a red flag on the cap, he is the only one who has provided anything of value to the orignal poster.

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=ReichsHeini]... he is the only one who has provided anything of value to the orignal poster.

Well, I guess that all depends on if the original poster decided to buy the hat or not.

B. N. Singer

[djpool]

Hello again, I am trying to learn from this thread and I am becoming increasingly confused. I have had a couple of emails from two very advanced collectors who say they can see nothing wrong with the M43 that started this thread. They are both authors of books which are quoted on this forum. Both refuse to debate on the forum however and do not want to be named. They say if the forum members know best then it must be wrong because the forum says but they would both buy it..

Like I said, I am confused. Can some-one please tell me in plain english what is so wrong with this cap. I am happy to accept it is wrong but why are those passing a death sentence on it so certain of their facts?

Going crazy, Chris

Hi Chris,

IMHO the hats looks technically correct. I can't see any mistakes in manufacturing or materials that tells me its a fake. Obviousily there are more experienced collectors out there that see something I don't.

As far as I can tell the concerns are:

1).Item was priced too low. This can mean the seller knows its bad and is trying to lure some unsuspecting collector into believing they're getting a bargain. Or it could mean the seller doesn't know the true value and screwed himself. Lesson: Never cut the buyer any slack ha,ha.

2) For such a rare item there appears to be a lot of similar pieces on the market. That shouldn't necessarily condemn the item but the buyer should proceed with extreme caution. I would work with the seller and work out a timeline which would allow you to send it to experienced collectors for comment. As far as I can tell the seller appears to be very cooperative. Lesson: The sudden appearance of rare items in quantity could indicate the introduction of a new reproduction.

3). The item looks new. Even unissued items exhibit signs of aging. Unfortunatey its almost impossible to determine aging from a picture. Thats the major disadvantage of evaluating something on line. Lesson: Unissued items are difficult to evaluate on line-if it looks new many folks will assume it is new.

Maybe I missed the mark but I couldn't find any comments that criticized the materials, overall shape, stamping etc. So I'm assuming if the item is fake, its a "perfect" one. So in 50 years it should pass as original.

Of course the most damning evidence is the vote. If the collecting community condemns something than that becomes law. It doesn't really matter if the item is original or not, what matters is if other collectors accept it as original. I'm not being critical of collecting by consensus. I'm just as guilty of the practice.If I want something I'm not 100% sure about, I'll seek the opinions (vote) of others. In Germany I'd call a huddle of other collector friends. Now I post on the forum. Sometimes you'll get hard facts other times opinions. On controversial/rare pieces you tend to get opinions.Then its up to the buyer to weigh everything and decide.

Oh well, enough said.

Oh my vote is " undecided" .

Wr Jim

[90th Light]

Thank you Jim, I appreciate your reply and the detail you have provided.
I agree totally with what you say.

The challenge however is that there are known and confirmed originals in this style and made from these materials. For all intents and purposes these have now been declared reproductions. To my sense of justice that seems wrong both to the owners of these SS M43's and history its self.

I do not know how much experience other forum members have in doing research but what happens on this forum is only of a qualitative nature and even then not properly done. There is no quantitative research here to prove the theory. What would be alot more useful than a simple poll, where one collector can lead others like sheep following, would be for all collectors who have a known original to let us know and all collectors who have seen or handled a reproduction to let us know. It would be interesting to then see if the known originals out-weigh the reproductions or vice-versa. The forum is an instrument of debate and model formation it gets very dangerious when it is also judge and jury. Most of what is expressed is opinion only not facts.

I repeat, I have no personal interest in proving this SS M43 is right or wrong. I just want to know how I can tell good from bad. We all have a duty in this and can not take it lightly if we get it wrong.

Again nice to touch base with you Jim, your research and observations are always a help, Chris

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=90th Light]...... Most of what is expressed is opinion only not facts.

Welcome to the reality of collecting WW2 militaria (or probably many others things as well).

What do you think this is all about other than opinions (all be it, hopefully based on some knowledge and experience)?

As long as I have been collecting, it has always been about, "what do you think about this?"

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Mr Singer, an "opinion" is a judgement or belief based on grounds lacking proof or on sentiment. A "fact" on the other hand is some-thing which is known to have occured or be true based on experience / reality.

It is very easy to express an opinion some-times with no thought at all but it becomes alot harder when some-one says prove it.

If this M43 cap is a reproduction where is the proof ?

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=90th Light]Mr Singer, an "opinion" is a judgement or belief based on grounds lacking proof or on sentiment. A "fact" on the other hand is some-thing which is known to have occured or be true based on experience / reality.
..... If this M43 cap is a reproduction where is the proof ?

I can't say, I wasn't there when the hat was made.

B. N. Singer

[John Huff]

Personally, I am very happy I can go to Mr. Singer for his "opinion". I don't always agree but when we do, I can't get my wallet out fast enough!