And How About This Dream.......m43 Ss Pz Cap At E-stand

[Bob Coleman]

ReichsHeini-
Take a deep breath and relax. Once you get personal with your attacks, you are inviting retaliation. The purpose of this Forum is to discuss items, not people. If the discussion is not to your liking, insults will gain nothing.
By the way, I have not changed my opinion on the brown piped cap and I did have two black caps with 800 insignia back in the mid 60's, one of which I personally bought from a veteran with many other SS items. You can choose to ignore my opinion if you want. I do not care. Just calm down so this thread does not get deleted.
Bob

[Glenn McInnes]

Opinions were asked and opinions were given. No one is obligated to say why.

No need to further educate the scumbag fakers that I am sure follow these forums..

What I can say is that in some fake M43 caps that I have seen some of the materials used in the manufacture appeared to be original (in some cases I am sure it was) and some materials used in the caps were not.


Glenn

[John Pic]

Apparently what has always occurred at shows long before the internet lives on in forums. Secret emails are passed back and forth saying why things are fake but only among certain established knowledgeable people and some of them never post in the thread because they either never want to be questioned, are afraid to tackle big dealers connected to the pieces etc. etc.
They expect people who dont know them to respect them just because of thier known status in the hobby.I respect thier experience but rely on my own. Ive watched some of them make mistakes of judgement in person, I heard some of them throw names of "experts" around that I know for a fact were responsible for some of the most elaborate restorations sold back in the 80s as untouched. Later to be revered as experts in SS uniforms...much to my anger since one ripped me off good as well as an old timer who had been collecting for many years before me.The forums are for people to share information if a faker wants to learn all they have to do is buy some books...not exposing the flaws of a piece for that reason to me is just a lame excuse( unless in the case of a super rare seldom seen item/insignia) used instead of just saying, I dont know. Im sure no one likes to be found out that they might not know something thus loosing thier popularity as a know all sage of TR memoribilia..although that probably wouldnt happen except in thier head.When I read that "many posters no longer contribute because..." posts I think to myself..what self centered, self important, arrogant b------s. 75% of the posters on these forums respect your knowledge and experience some will not always agree and some will be buttheads because thats what they are.No excuse for not wanting to share.

[djpool]

Great thread . Its interesting to read the different philosophies on collecting. I think we're all adult enough to respect conflicting opinions. The hobby belongs to us not the fakers. We all share a passion for collecting artifacts from a very tragic and interesting period in world history. I genuinely believe that all of us want to seek truth and do our bit to further the hobby. For me personally the interaction with other collectors holding the same passion is just as important as actually acquiring more items. This thread has touched on a couple of different areas. Heres my 2 cents worth on various topics:
Opinions
The dictionary definition is:
1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:
2 A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert: a medical opinion.
3 A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing: has a low opinion of braggarts.
4. The prevailing view: public opinion.
Not all opinions hold the same weight. When I comment it usually falls into the category of 1, 3 or 4. There are others by virtue of their contributions, experience etc that fall into category 2, whether they sought that distinction or not. Names like Mr Singer, Bob Hritz, Wade Krawczyc, George Peterson, Scott Prichett, Mike Pruett and several others fall into that category. When these folks speak it carries weight and influences other collectors.
Imagine going to the Doctors to get his opinion because you have chest pains.
Patient- Hey Doc am I okay?<O></O>
Doctor-"I could entertain doubts."
I'm not picking on Mr Singer. I know his intent is to advise and protect the collecting community.We're fortunate to have him on the forum. He also offered to take a hands on look at the piece as long as the owner covered mailing costs both ways. It doesn't get any better than that.
Proof
Its almost impossible to provide concrete proof that an item originated from the war. But we do know that the Germans used certain materials, stamped items in a certain manner, constructed items in a certain way etc that can be used to form an opinion. Pictures are a poor way to fully assess an item. On the good fakes I think its necessary to have the object in hand. You need to feel the item, smell it, conduct burn tests put it under a microscope. Compare it to a known original. Then see what falls out.
Secrets
I respect those collectors who are afraid of disclosing information to the enemy. We don't need to have a full disclosure policy but it would be nice if some folks would elaborate their responses in general terms. A simple comments like "I see some construction techniques not consistent with known originals I have examined". It would certainly help me to understand a little better. Right now I don't know if it’s the hat, the price, the presence of other examples for sale or because the hat looks new which is the underlying cause of concern.
Actually I believe we need to have more information. The medal collectors are light years ahead of us in this arena. They have done metal tests, evaluated paints in labs, use high magnification pictures etc. I think the thought process is "the fakers might get the outward details correct but it will be very difficult to duplicate the materials. Its more complicated with cloth but with fakes getting better every day it might become necessary to:
1. Look at the effects of aging on fibers. I know wool deteriorates over time. How does new wool compare to wool say 50 years old.
2. I think that wartime dyes are different then current dyes. Anyway to test?
3. The Germans started blending rayon in with wool in order to conserve materials. Is there any way to determine that and if so are the fakers doing the same thing.
And there are a number of other areas that could be looked at. If the fakers realize that collectors are looking at fiber content etc it will force them to try to duplicate it. That will either force them into spending more money to produce identical materials or to buy original uniforms/cloth in order to use. In any case we reduce their profits. I doubt we'll ever stop them.
I know collectors like myself and Bob Hritz use microscopes when we examine certain items.
Teaching, Mentoring
Personally I feel the forum is a place for learning and teaching. I know there are some new collectors out there that don't seem to want to put in the effort to learn. But there are many more that are serious and want to learn. Telling someone to buy reference books is nice, but books only get you part of the way there. You'll never be knowledgeable unless the old timers help you and show you what to look for in original pieces. I was fortunate that George Peterson took me under his wing when I first got into the hobby. Then I continued to run into other collectors who bent over backwards sharing knowledge. Now I happen to have the good fortune of living near Bob Hritz who is a fountain of knowledge and has a wonderful collection to boot. Others on the forum aren't so fortunate and use the forum as a major source of learning. We should try to help them if we can.
<O</O
Enough philosophizing.
<O</O
WR Jim
<O></O>

[90th Light]

Hello Jim, I had read this thread earlier in the day and decided I would have a think about things before I added more. You have nicely stated many of the points I felt needed to be said. What I would like to add at this stage is;

1/ The best way to learn since time began is to ask why ? and keep asking why until your need for knowledge is satisfied.

2/ Only a fool accepts some-ones opinion with-out asking what it is based on. Some-one at my work the other day told me that in their opinion the British soldiers in WW2 were a more effective force than the Americans. I asked them what that was based on and if they knew their facts they would soon discover that was rubbish. Still remains a popular view in New Zealand to this day however which originated during WW2.

3/ What do we do when the "old-time" collectors are no longer with us and we can not ask their opinions ?
If we do not document and share this knowledge it could be lost forever. Furture generations of collectors will just view us as a bunch of selfish people who had so much opportunity to meet the veterans and record what they brought home but failed to do so. Many of us already are guility of this.

4/ We have a clothing company here in New Zealand call "The Real McCoys" They make replica US flight jackets ie A2's B3's G1's etc. They are owned by a Japanese concern and their attention to detail is fastidous. You would be hard pressed to tell one of these from the real thing. Over the years they have assembled a large collection and were necessary take original jackets apart to make patterns and indulge in reverse engineering to work out how the jackets were made. They have gone to the USA and bought original machines. These are then refurbished in a Railway work-shop. This gets round the right number of stitches per inch. All zips, fasteners & domes are made in the USA by the same companies that made them in the 1930's and 40's. Their jackets were used in the TV series "Band of Brothers" and others.
I asked them if the forums were any use. The reply was, "not really, you can not see enough in the pictures. The real answers were in pulling a known original to bits".

The year is 2006 not 1976, if we are to survive in this field of collecting we must increase our sharing of knowledge other-wise people will give up and many people will not even start.

I now await the thoughts of others, Chris

[judas]

Well, the American's joined WW1 at how many days before it ended? and how long were the Brits, Aussies and NZ'rs in that war?
And, how long after 1939 did it take for the US to join this war WWII?
I think for you to say that you disagree that the American's were more effective is not entirely based on factual evidence.
The britz and other had been fighting for nearly 5 years in WWII before the US came in, and that only under duress of Pearl Harbour, did they enter this war.
The mere fact that they were fresh, eager and not war torn and tired and being a larger force, of course made them very effective - at the end, but the Germans still held them back so if you really rationalize this, the Britz were an extremely effective force, and the only thing that got in their way, was the officers snobery as in WWI based on commission assignments due to family rather than skill.

ie. I am an ex boxer. I do 5 rounds. My best emergy is now worn somewhat
Jo arrives and takes over and throws the opponent in less than 1 minute.
shucks guys, whos the real winner.

[judas]

On reading the previous I have made a minor error, I meant with respect to the British being less effective than the Americans, how can you come to this conclusion on the above facts.
The British were very effective, how many years do you expect them to fight without getting worn out. As time goes on like anything, it does wear out, no matter how effective it was in the beginning.

[90th Light]

Hello Judas, the facts speak for themselves. If it had not been for an American fleet in the battles of the Coral Sea and Midway in 1942, Australia and New Zealand would have become part of the Imperial Japanese Empire. After D-Day every Allied soldier who was replaced in Western Europe was American. The British were at the full extent of their Production Possibility Curve in mid-1944 and had run out of man-power. If we had not had American reserves we may never have got across the Rhine and into Germany in 1945. I am in no way under-valuing the endurance and abilities of the British soldier and those of her Empire. God knows I lost enough relatives fighting for the cause in both 1914 to 1918 and 1939 to 1945 but credit where credit is due. We could not have done it with-out the fighting forces and production of the USA. My mother still talks to this day of the hope she felt on seeing the US Marines arriving here in 1942. Many of those Marines spent their last days in my city and not long after that died in hard action at Guadalcanel.

Chris

[Gary Wood]

Gents do you not think this thread has run is course???

[judas]

Hi Chris
thank you for enlightening us a little more. I fully appreciate what you have responded with. I am not doubting that what you say in essence is correct.
Possibly it has been how you have first mentioned this, that could have been interpreted in various ways.

I am sure that you are correct about the Japanese in NZ.
The British American force has always been there as a backup. America developed predominately through the British in the 1700's. Britian and Europe have always been the same in different guises.

I possibly jumped to the wrong conclusion of what you were trying to establish with your comments re the British. Britain held force against the Nazi even crossing to France in both wars to try to ensure the democracy of Europe.
However, America as an alter-allay of the british and I am sure working in co ordination with the allies, realised that there was a need to come to the rescue of the democracies of the world in WWII. and subsequently did so to the extent that the war was resolved after American help. So in effect the Americans did help very much to effect the result of the war - especially in the south seas.

Now with reference to democracy:

Now, in this time, it has become America trying to defend the democracy of the Western world since the 1950's till now. I am sure that those who were allies of this force have not forgotten their roots of friendship and hopefully would respond in due course to the confilcts that we now face and that which is still in the future.

Yet there has to be said that on all sides that the Nazi regime in its infancy, did bring the German nation to a sense of being and self respect. It took such a little to turn this nation around, bringing forth opportunity, skill and pride within a nation that needed to be uplifted.
Unfortunately, power plays tricks and tricks turn often out to be bad. Had Hitler had a more level tune to his fiddel he may have strung a different tune to the betterment of mankind.

The Jewish question:

No one wanted the Jews in the 1930's. Reinhardt Heindrich tried to remove from Germany well prior to the War the Jews whom he believed were becoming fat off the land that belonged to their own people.
Yet no country in the world was wlling to take the Jews from Germany.
The Jews were Hitler's Achilles Heel., and this resulted in the destruction of a magnitude that we have seen over and over again on a smaller scale in many times since the 1940's. with other genocides in other continents.

The world did not recognise the importance of the Jewish question. Hence they either ignored it or turned a blind eye. A homeland for the Jews is/was as important then as it is today with a homeland for all people.

We have today a situation which has become a melting pot glossed over in honey by P.C political correctness. The nations of this world need to recognise before it is too late that all people need to have a homeland to belong to. This is the fundamential reason why humanity goes to war.

Unfortunately, I believe that we have now gone beyond this and have now integrated the world so much that the next war will not be national or racial but religious. I often wonder that if they had of taken time then to create homelands for the dispossed of this world, we would not now be facing the Armegeddon of this current world democracy.
judas

[NZMark]

Ah...Weren't we discussing a cap at some point?
Mark.

[Felix]

Slightly off topic, arent we?

[judas]

yes we were actually. Yet as there has been no response to my private emails, I thought the subject must have become boring, and as someone responded about the British, just turned to conversation around.

PS I am still very interested in finding out about the cap itself, if someone wishes to respond 'privately' about what is fake about the cap? and with all respect I appreciate that we do not want to give all away to the so called fakers and fraudsters, fair enough, but with all the valid points made, this is becoming a little mickey mouse do you not think?
judas

[B. N. Singer]

[quote=ReichsHeini]People on forums are like lemmings and they will just follow the other "experts" right off the cliff.

AAAAAAH, if this is any slight reference to yours truly, please don't tell me that I have suddenly become the "Pied Piper" of the forum (having of course, no effect on some wiser, deaf little mice).

Look, nothing is going to change the way I (and some other collectors) have done "business" for the past number of years. Anyone that knows me will tell you that (for what little it is worth) I have always been glad to give my OPINION and have done so in the past at military shows. These same people will also tell you that (for the most part) they know better than to ask me WHY. That is a totally different issue for me.

Now, gentlemen (and the term might not necessarily apply to some here after reading through this thread), I have been taken to task for my "reasoned lacking opinions" before and I expect it will happen again. I have tried to explain my reasons for my postings (trying to keep others from making what I feel might be a mistake, or if an OPINION is asked for) as well, as not going into "volumes of detail" as to why. If this is of help to some, great, if it is of none to others, I apologize. But, please do NOT feel that you have any right, nor I an obligation to enumerate with detail my OPINIONS.

The truth is (believe it or not) I do sympathize with collectors today who are dedicated and trying to learn, especially considering the mine field presented by today's technological advanced fakes. And I know there are many other "older hobbyist" that feel exactly the same. I however, am no teacher and do not feel comfortable being given any "mantel" as expert. If your better judgment should have you disregard my substance lacking postings as tripe, OK by me. After all as was commented, it is only an OPINION (and I have few facts to use as proof).

By the way, did the original poster buy this nicely constructed "SS Pz M43" hat?

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

I apologise to forum members for steering the topic off the tracks. I was trying to make a point about how dangerous opinions come myths can be against well researched facts. The crossing of the Rhine in 1945 by a predominantly US force does however explain how so many un-issued SS M43's have found there way back to America. Does it not ?

Will stay on topic, Chris