And How About This Dream.......m43 Ss Pz Cap At E-stand

[90th Light]

Then I put to you Mr Singer that we have gone a full circle, was the cap made before May 1945 or after and when those who have caps like this come to sell them, how should they represent them

Chris

[90th Light]

John, I am not questioning Mr Singer's experience with Panzer items. I understand it is extensive but at some stage "we" on the forum may have to change this "closed-door" policy on sharing all the facts. I have often wondered if these SS M43's with trap are good or bad and so far I am no further ahead in being able to tell. They are a nice hat and many claim they have seen a known original so why is this one wrong ?

With respect, Chris

[Bobwirtz]

"we" on the forum may have to change this "closed-door" policy on sharing all the facts. "

Chris,

If you make it a rule for full disclosure of all the facts behind people's opinions on authentication then you might as well just make this a forum for 'show and tell' and not ask if the artifact is original. In many instances I am unwilling to state all of my facts, which may be used by the fakers to improve their fakes. If this cap is bad with only one or two minor 'tells' and those are disclosed, how are we going to tell on the next cap that has had these errors corrected? On the other hand, some of the stuff that has been posted here for authentication is so bad that a novice should be able to pick it out. I'd be wasting my time listing the hundreds of things wrong with it. I think you are asking too much. Why have a forum at all if you have to disclose everything to back up your opinion? If this becomes the case, then you won't hear from me anymore, as well as many other forum members.

Bob

[Bob Coleman]

[quote=Bobwirtz]Chris,

If you make it a rule for full disclosure of all the facts behind people's opinions on authentication then you might as well just make this a forum for 'show and tell' and not ask if the artifact is original. In many instances I am unwilling to state all of my facts, which may be used by the fakers to improve their fakes. If this cap is bad with only one or two minor 'tells' and those are disclosed, how are we going to tell on the next cap that has had these errors corrected? On the other hand, some of the stuff that has been posted here for authentication is so bad that a novice should be able to pick it out. I'd be wasting my time listing the hundreds of things wrong with it. I think you are asking too much. Why have a forum at all if you have to disclose everything to back up your opinion? If this becomes the case, then you won't hear from me anymore, as well as many other forum members.

Chris-

I must agree 100% with what Bob has said. Please note that not one old time collector has given this hat a thumbs up. What you are asking for is absurd. Online forums hae already educated the fakers as to the errors of their ways and the next generation gets corrected. At some point, if you want to learn, listen to the educated opinions of seasoned collectors. Go to major military shows and meet these people and tap from their combined hundreds of years of collecting experieince. The "prove to me it is not original" arguement is what I have heard many times from those who deal in relics of the 4th Reich to justify their larcenous ways.
Bob

PS: you will gain more educated friends in this hobby by listening

[John Pic]

I highly recomend the reading of the consensus of opinion on the Brown piped officers visor and the outcome of that thrashing of an original item by "experienced" collectors.

I am in support of what Chris states and would love to see the list of the "hundreds" of things wrong with this cap. Rest assured the fakers already know how to correct problems they can do it easily without the help of the experiences of old collectors.At least where cloth items are concerned.Why do we assume those who make the best fakes arent experienced collectors gone over to the dark side?

[Bobwirtz]

I wasn't speaking of this cap when I said "hundreds of things" wrong... I was speaking about some of the eBay junk that shows up on here with somebody asking if it's real. I don't see wasting my time listing everything that is wrong with it. I think a simple opinion is sufficient. If the poster doesn't know the difference, then he should educate himself. It's not my job to educate everybody on here in the greatest detail possible. YOU are responsible for LEARNING YOUR HOBBY, not me.

Now if y'all want to petition the forum administrators and owners to make it an absolute rule that all opinions must be backed up with facts and members that break that rule are subject to suspension, then by all means go right ahead. I would venture to say however that you won't get another opinion stated on this forum. Nobody will bother with it... people will post their artifacts and we'll have hundreds of single entry threads because nobody will bother to submit an opinion either way. And opinions go both ways. You'd have to include facts backing up your opinion if you like something too! Can't go half way on something like that...

So go ahead...

(The Other) Bob

[Daniele C]

Bob it s true wot you say that anyone shud study and learn on his own but it s also true that any collector cant be educated witout educators.what do you think?
I think that for the "right" of this great hobby everyone should share his knowledge and opinion like this forum is doin because if people here(me 1st)is learning is because other people is teachin and givin opinions.after that everyone at the end will see what he learnd.just my opinion.
Dan

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=90th Light].... but at some stage "we" on the forum may have to change this "closed-door" policy on sharing all the facts.

If that should become the case, at that point, you will no longer hear from me (and I would wager, from others who are even more experienced in the hobby than I).

B. N. Singer

[Bob Hritz]

I haven't piped in because of my lack of knowledge on M-43 caps. I have only a few, mostly Heer and Luftwaffe and only 1 enlisted M-43 of the SS venue.

I did want to comment on the oft bandied word 'PROOF'. Now, I cannot proove that my father was actually my father. However, from his every action and behavior, and his honesty and integrity, I had always taken it for granted. No, I am not going to disturb his resting bones for a DNA sample, but will continue to believe because I value his WORD.

Most of us were not around in WWII, but a lot of us have seen more than a few items of German SS clothing. All one can do is use his experience and try to share that with someone with a desire to learn. I applaud those who share opinion, when that opinion is based on years of experience. There are many, on these forums, who do not know the posters personally and are not aware of their expertise in this field. I would say that Mike D., Bryon S., Bob C., Jim P., and Jim T. have seen more uniforms and headgear than many of us. They have seen good and bad, new and old. Their opinion is something to take into serious consideration.

There is little doubt that the humming of sewing machines and singing of scissors are going on this very moment at 4th Reich manufacturing concerns. Those who would fool us are now high tech, so methods of construction and application of insignia may be replicated, to the best that technology allows. If it could be made in 1944, it certainly can be made in 2006, with the right investment in materials, equipment and talented workers. Do not disbleieve that these fakers will not invest thousands into original items to copy. Just look at the profit margin. I do not have the knowledge to determine uniforms and headgear, but only those badges and insignia that they wear. There are those who study garments, exclusively, and I am one to HEED their word.

Now, for my last comment is the issue of quantity of any item on the market. Back in the late 1960's, I sent Ray Zyla, at Mohawk Arms, $3 for his catalogue. This included a catalogue and a Luftwaffe M-43 cap. Yes, the cap was free with the $3 catalogue. I still have the cap! Ray had thousands of them and there was little interest. If only I had known that these 'common' hats would someday have value. I also recall, in the early 1970's when I bought a Dachau black M-43 cap, most collectors felt it was a fake. Flimsy material, black plastic 4 hole buttons, wierd pirate skull wool insignia, strangely placed seams all were disturbing. Then we found more and more, which led to many refusing to have on in their collections. Now, it is a very well respected hat, with a little research and a few period photos.

Are the posted, near identical, black SS M-43 caps original? I do not know. I would probably have been tickled pink to own one, but when those I respect say differently, I back away. Jim Pool summed it up correctly when he stated that it is not authenticity that matters, it is what the collecting community accepts as authentic. That is a sad commentary, but nonetheless, a trueism.

Bob Hritz

[Bobwirtz]

Bob it s true wot you say that anyone shud study and learn on his own but it s also true that any collector cant be educated witout educators.what do you think?
I think that for the "right" of this great hobby everyone should share his knowledge and opinion like this forum is doin because if people here(me 1st)is learning is because other people is teachin and givin opinions.after that everyone at the end will see what he learnd.just my opinion.
Dan

Dan,

You just gave your opinion. If Chris et al had it their way, then you'd have to back up your opinion with facts and proof... I think an opinion, especially from a learned source is an education. They have provided you with valuable insight that points out that something isn't right. Now you do the research and figure out WHAT are the differences... get yourself a mentor to learn from. I don't believe this forum will ever take the place of a mentor or getting together with other collectors and sharing hands on information.

Bob

[Daniele C]

Dan,

I think an opinion, especially from a learned source is an education. They have provided you with valuable insight that points out that something isn't right. Now you do the research and figure out WHAT are the differences... get yourself a mentor to learn from.
Bob

Yes that s what i meant.

Dan

[judas]

i have been looking and looking i have one our two late m43 lufwaffer .caps
but this i am just starting to go round and round with so can some one please send me a email before i end up here all so down this end of the woods there are no big shows .kind regards

[BenVK]

I really don't see what everybody's getting so uptight about.
If this were a regular Luft or Heer M43 we'd have gotten down to the nitty gritty details of what is right or wrong about the materials, construction etc long ago.

So far in this case, the only the insignia and it's application has been mentioned at all.

Let's not fool ourselves. The fakers know a hell of a lot more than we probably give them credit for and the way to stay ahead of them IMO, is to share information within our community. All this secret squirrel stuff is just causing friction and divide amongst ourselves.

If you've got specific concerns about this cap that you know are genuine and not just hot air, please post them or at least pm the owner so we can move forward and not just round in circles..

[ReichsHeini]

I have to agree with JohnPic on this issue but if you collect by consensus then you very well may be happy with the reponses by the "seasoned" collectors.
Me, I think the fakers can find what they need just by examining two or three original m-43 caps. There are lots out there to see. They are not locked away in the dark. They are sold through private parties and dealers.
I am not a rookie collector - and I see nothing wrong with this cap by the photos. Tony and John are not new to the hobby either. They provided accurate feedback in my opinion and gave reasons why they felt like this.
They also seem to be dissatisfied with the consensus of the people who respond "not for me".
People on forums are like lemmings and they will just follow the other "experts" right off the cliff.
The seasoned experts made complete asses of themselves when commenting on the brown-piped officer visor in another thread. somebody paid a lot of money for that but forum members were quick to dismiss that as fake because that is what they do best.

Do you really think that they know some super secrets about this cap?
Well Bob Hritz said all the experts thought Dachau caps were fake back in the day. It seems we have learned more since that time.
No I do not think there should be a rule , I hate exremist in anything, but really some of these guys are so full of themselves it is hilarious.
Personally I like to see an opinion backed-up with reason, not with typical arrogance and standard "I have been collecting this stuff before you were born..." BS. yes experience is key in this hobby, and these forums are supposed to be about sharing knowledge.
We have some members that are extremley experienced. They have seen lots and lots of this stuff. They are a great value to the hobby.
Then we also have the Internet forums where we share this knowledge. Yes, there are potential fakers lurking. However I don't think it is necessary to keep every detail one sees in a posted item a secret. expecially a pertinent detail.
Oh and everybody is wrong at some point, and memories are maybe not so accurate -
I love when collectors say things like' " I had a cap with 800 marked insignia in the seventies and it was 100% original" but they can't show us any actual real 800 marked insignia on the forum. Not one example... They just tell storeies about how it has to exist beacuse they saw it themselves. Maybe they are mistaken? Where is the fact to back up the opinion. Oh well..... just my 2 cents about collecting by concensus.
I would love to hear one of the dissenters reveal one of their red flags on this cap !

[judas]

wow no holding back there i hear all sides to this and would like to know what i am missing.is it the side skirts to long? is it the wool ? .is it the way its been sown i dont buy into it looks to new.no one has yet said what is wrong .i have looked at some on the guild but just cant put my eye on it.so those that know please email me.