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**NickG** · 12-14-2014, 05:05 PM

German troops in some sort of altercation involving Greek civilians...Bomb blast? Partisan action with wounded civilians??
All wearing what appears to be SS sahariana shirt uniforms (note back of collar on the right..) so possibly SS Polizei Div personnel.
The helmet on the left is of course grau...not sure about the helmet on the right...Appears lighter in color. Maybe not..
Again Greek occupation...

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**90th Light** · 12-14-2014, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by NickG View Post

Greece 1943 or 1944. Does not prove anything but just to give an idea of the theatre...
No fox hole fighting, no front line actions, just occupation duty to include such vehicle parades to impress the civilians
with their might! and anti partisan operations of course...which were limited actions, unlike DAK and other theatres...
where battle damaged helmets were picked up by the allies... Duty in Greece was considered a paradise opportunity, R & R!

Interesting, not one of the tropical painted steel helmets seems to have an SS rune, LW eagle or WH eagle

.

Also no camo painted patterns eg streaks, patches or dots.

Seems like plain sand/ tan/ brown without transters was the order of the day in Greece and beyond

May be that was the uniform order and SS policy for their units in Greece & Mediterranean anti-partisan/ police duty. Hence the need to issue helmets in that sand/ tan/ brown colour when an SS tropical uniform and kit was issued from the CZ SS depot ?

Chris

**NickG** · 12-14-2014, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Interesting, not one of the tropical painted steel helmets seems to have an SS rune, LW eagle or WH eagle

.

Also no camo painted patterns eg streaks, patches or dots.

Seems like plain sand/ tan/ brown without transfers was the order of the day in Greece and beyond

Chris

yeah for funerals and vehicle parades you are not going to have much need for camo patterns on helmets...
That's why these troops are photographed 90% of the time with soft covers...Again it was a paradise to be stationed at...
not much need for a stahlhelm outside of ceremonial occasions! They were tourists for the most part and much to see in Greece!

Most SS tropical photos show soft covers only...like these ...Including tropical pith helmets without shield, like those that came out of the Prague depot, which were all "finished" post war with added LW insignia...(the ones with light tan helmet edge trim...), also shown being worn by Czechoslovakian resistance fighters in 1945 who helped themselves at the depot..., illustrated earlier in this thread.

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**DougB** · 12-14-2014, 09:36 PM

I think perhaps it's reaching that these were exclusive for SS use. Like I said in (one of the 2) thread it makes sense if these were for dispersal to troops heading to say Greece for example, and these were refurbished or factory built in this color, then it makes no sense to decal the helmets. They then could be used for any service branch, and reissued later without the need to re decal.

Just a thought. I don't think these, if even wartime, would have been the exclusive domain of the SS.

**DougB** · 12-14-2014, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

The SS Police Division did not fight in the west for very long. The longest period was in France in 1940. Basically after that, the fought in the east and against Partisans in the Mediterranean. There were very few opportunities where American servicemen would have had the chance to pick up items from this SS division. Even less chances to pick up tropical uniform items from them. Below is an overview of their fighting history from 1943. In 1940 they were fighting in France. In 1941-42 they were in Russia;

1943
In February 1943, the division saw action south of Lake Ladoga and was involved in a number of Soviet offensives when it was forced to withdraw to a new defensive line at Kolpino where it was successful in holding the Red Army, despite suffering heavy casualties.

It was at this point that units of the division were transferred to the west to retrain and upgrade to a Panzergrenadier Division; leaving a small Kampfgruppe (battlegroup) in the east and a Dutch Volunteer Legion, the Niederland, to make up the numbers. The Kampfgruppe was disbanded in May 1943, when the SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier Division was ready for action.

The SS-Polizei Division did not return to the Soviet Union but was sent to Greece where it undertook anti-partisan operations in the northern part of the country. During this time, the Gestapo recorded that the division was involved in war crimes and atrocities against the civilian population of Klissura and the village of Distomo in what became known as the Distomo massacre.

1944
The division remained in Greece until August 1944 before being recalled to face the advancing Red Army at Belgrade. It was again involved in heavy fighting and suffered heavy losses. By September 1944, the division was reduced to about half its strength and forced back into Slovenia. During its service in Greece, its units were involved in the Distomo massacre, one of the worst atrocities ever committed against civilians during WWII.

1945
The much reduced SS-Polizei Division was moved north to Pomerania where it saw action attempting to hold the Soviets back. Hitler assigned it to Army Detachment Steiner for the relief of Berlin, but the troops lacked heavy weapons and did not engage as planned. Moved to Danzig, it was trapped by the Red Army and after a dire battle it was shipped across the Hela Peninsula to Swinemünde.

After a brief rest, what remained of the SS-Polizei Division fought its way across the Elbe river, surrendering to the Americans near Wittenberge-Lenzen.

What surrendered to the Americans in 1945 was only a fraction of the original division. Because they had been fighting in the east over the winter of 1944-45, none of those who surrendered were wearing tropical uniforms,

Thus the opportunity for such tropical uniform items in collections today from this division is remote.

The New Zealander's did encounter the odd former member of this division during the drive to Trieste in April 1945 and beyond up into Austria May 1945. In some case they were encountered before April 45 and even during 1944. This is because they had been attached to German Police, SS and Italian RSI units fighting partisans as a cadre for the formation and experienced NCO's. Some of these units were wearing a mix of Wehrmacht and SS tropical uniforms. These anti-partisan units fought in Italy, the north of Italy and countries above Italy such as Croatia. Again the opportunity for veterans to get uniform items from this SS Police division and other SS divisions in tropical uniform was not high,

Chris

Thanks Chris. I know well where they served, my point was the helmets as the point of discussion, were for use in western theaters. The helmets (supposedly) returned to this depot for further issue.

Greece is what I am reading over and over. So why none show up till this "hoard" in the 80's? Again playing devils advocate.

The theory lines up nicely but the helmets seem to have disappeared from the face of the earth till the 80s no? That is a problem I think.

I do not believe that if these were from some depot for issue that it was exclusive for SS given the other service branches (LW) in thr period pics with what may - or may not - be this style of helmet.

Anyway, nothing more to add.

Cheers
Doug

**90th Light** · 12-15-2014, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by DougB View Post

Thanks Chris. I know well where they served, my point was the helmets as the point of discussion, were for use in western theaters. The helmets (supposedly) returned to this depot for further issue.

Greece is what I am reading over and over. So why none show up till this "hoard" in the 80's? Again playing devils advocate.

The theory lines up nicely but the helmets seem to have disappeared from the face of the earth till the 80s no? That is a problem I think.

I do not believe that if these were from some depot for issue that it was exclusive for SS given the other service branches (LW) in thr period pics with what may - or may not - be this style of helmet.

Anyway, nothing more to add.

Cheers
Doug

This is not the first depot find of left behind German helmets that I have seen in my time Doug,

I have several M42's that came from such a WH or SS depot in Italy. They are in the same kind of mint condition except for the fact that they are painted a dark green colour. Again none have any WH eagle or SS runes. They were smuggled back to New Zealand in the trucks that 2NZEF brought back and are more likely WH than SS.

I am not so sure if the Germans were that short of steel helmets to the point that they had to press every example they could get their hands on back into front line service. I have never heard of such shortages in 1945 ???

There may in fact have been some of these sand/ tan/ brown helmets picked up in Italy. Sadly to date they have simply been dismissed because of the CZ Egyptian Epoxy theory and they were not taken seriously at the time.

However, I have just been sent photo of what one collector here believes is pile of these helmets left behind by the Germans. There are a couple of NZ soldiers collecting them along with weapons to throw onto the back of a truck. The interesting thing is that the possible sand/ tan/ brown colour of the helmets compares nicely with the Khaki uniforms that the New Zealanders are wearing. Even better, several of the helmets are up-side down and one can see the matching inside colour

I will post the image here as soon as I can,

Chris

**90th Light** · 12-15-2014, 06:30 AM

I have just been sent photo of what one collector here believes is pile of these helmets left behind by the Germans. There are a couple of NZ soldiers collecting them along with weapons to throw onto the back of a truck. The interesting thing is that the possible sand/ tan/ brown colour of the helmets compares nicely with the Khaki uniforms that the New Zealanders are wearing. Even better, several of the helmets are up-side down and one can see the matching inside colour.

Compare also against the tan plywood of the K98 stocks in the photo. It makes an interesting colour shade comparison to say the least.

Given where the New Zealanders were and who they were fighting, it could be;

Waffen-Gebirgs-(Karstjager-) Division der SS, 1 August - 5 December 1944 (also 24 Waffen-Gebrigs-(Karstjager-) Brigade der SS sowie SS-Karstjager- Battalion)

SS Panzer Grenadier-Lehr-Brigade = SS Panzer Grenadier-Lehr-Regiment

Waffen-Gebrigs-(Karstjager-) Brigade der SS = v.SS und Polizei 1. Italienische Friewilligen-Sturm-Brigade (Milizia Armata) (Pol)

Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade der SS (Ital.Nr.1) = v.SS und Polizei

Ersatz und Ausb. 7. SS Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen", April 1945 until end of hostilities

Chris

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**90th Light** · 12-15-2014, 06:33 AM

I have just been sent photo of what one collector here believes is pile of these helmets left behind by the Germans. There are a couple of NZ soldiers collecting them along with weapons to throw onto the back of a truck. The interesting thing is that the possible sand/ tan/ brown colour of the helmets compares nicely with the Khaki uniforms that the New Zealanders are wearing. Even better, several of the helmets are up-side down and one can see the matching inside colour.

Note the mix of M42's & M35's in the lighter colour both inside & out,

Chris

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**bubble** · 12-15-2014, 11:54 AM

Hi, I'm today on the various Arab websites looking for photos of postwar Arab troops from countries of the Middle East (mainly Egyptian and Syrian army) from around 1947 to 1960 (Arab Israeli wars) with German helmets. There are many different photos of Arab soldiers in various helmets of those times, but I could not find any photos of soldiers with old German helmets.

I've searched through google in the Arabic language (arabian language - translator) = pictures and text in the articles.

For example:
القوات المصرية في عام 1948 = "Egyptian forces/soldiers 1948" (you can change just year - from 1946 to 1958 for example)

https://www.google.cz/search?q=القوا...+1948&imgdii=_

or:
الجيش المصري في عام 1955 = "Egyptian army in 1955"
خوذة الألمانية من تشيكوسلوفاكيا = "German helmets from Czechoslovakia"
atd atd.. and nothing!

You can try searching yourself..

**NickG** · 12-15-2014, 12:03 PM

Good research!
I like the Italian Baretta sub machine gun!...
Not surprises at all...The Egypt contract is a fable and it is now also proven that the Czech's did not use this (RAL) color for their emergency services...

Looking at the poll thus far the following:
Most have voted either wartime refurbished
or otherwise very good chance its war time
the Czech and Egypt scenarios are hardly getting any votes...

Isn't that ironic? That was the story that most believed in for decades, rejecting these helmets...
Others voted that they just don't no either way...

**PAB** · 12-15-2014, 12:10 PM

I think you have to be careful with B/W photo's esp with sunlight and how glare makes it appears to the eye.

Also if they were never sent to Egypt in the first place, hence no images of them being worn. Not sure that you can call this thread a poll?

**bubble** · 12-15-2014, 12:12 PM

For example, on this photo of Wehrmacht soldiers (Greece 1943-44) some helmets looks also very dark and some very light (yellow/brown?)

**NickG** · 12-15-2014, 12:13 PM

Received these images today from a German collector...
______________________________

Hi Nick

I got some interesting pictures from my collector friend. Have a look at the color. The yellow/green on the LW M40 and the oil can is the same like the ctech yellow7green from the M42.
I think, this is next good example, that the czech helmets has a wehrmachts paint. The question is, is the paint of the m42 old? Or were the helmet painted with the german color residues after the war? :-)

Kind regards
Basti

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Unbenannt-1.jpg (211.0 KB, 177 views)

**NickG** · 12-15-2014, 12:15 PM

Comparison

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**NickG** · 12-15-2014, 12:18 PM

Comparison paint LW helmet and CZ helmet... (received by me, just being the moderator here...but hope this adds to solving the mystery!)

He further wrote:
Nick! The LW M40 is not a overpainted LW helmet, it is a reissued helmet!!

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