My new DAK helmets

[NickG]

Is it possible that these helmets received a primer coat with the other intent that they would receive a second coat, and that did not happen? So they got issued with liners as is?

That's not a bad proposition...so war time unfinished with a primer coat and left as is...never used/issued so never finished (assembed) and assembled later
by the Czechs after the war with more left over parts TO INCLUDE the 1943 liner pins...
BUT here's the problem with that thought...the pins match the paint perfectly so that is strange...(Proof of war time paint and assembly!)

The other (better) explanation: late war production short cuts and issued finished like this with ersatz vehicle primer, as its suitable for tropical (SS) service (which explains the liner pins being uniformly painted) and worn like this SS funeral photo shows...(Greece).
We still aren't sure.., but I am still leaning towards the latter...The export fable was just a lazy excuse, not thoroughly investigated. That's dead in my book.
Any Greek members here who might have found such helmets in used condition in Greece? I can't imagne every single one being accounted for and returned to the Prague depot upon rotation by the Polizei Division...Some lost, left behind in theatre?

[bubble]

CS civil defence have had sand coloured uniforms in the 50-60's , so i presume
they stocked those sand helmets found in the german stocks to match the uniform colour ?

Nick

Yes, it is also possible ..

Czechoslovak civil defense (CO = Civilní obrana) at the time of 40-60s use only black helmets - as well as volunteer firefighters (and very rare example with green letters "CO") either old German or Czechoslovak helmets.
I've never seen any brown CZ CO helmet - in any collections or on any photos from that time .. always black or green and in 70/80-90s only white blue or orange but never brown ..

But I can not exclude that these brown helmets could be specifically used for example in some chemical plants 'etc..) only..

[bubble]

http://www.ustecke-podzemi.cz/fotogalerie/fotogalerie/
http://ustecky.denik.cz/galerie/2013...tml?mm=4609415 (4 photos)
http://radil.sweb.cz/ceska_republika...zeum_co_ul.htm
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Muzeu...=photos_stream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lf_kZu4Iak
http://www.archaprojekt.cz/fotogalerie.html
http://www.kafelanka.cz/mista/krytco6.php
http://www.stsul.cz/data/aktuality/1...912b/index.htm
http://www.jirivanerek.cz/stranky/krytusti/index.html


You look at these links - these are all pictures from various CO (civil defense) museums or CO exhibitions (Police Muzeum Prag etc) = all only CZ Civil Defense from 1920 to 1990..

And there were no brown helmets..

[bubble]

For example, this CZ man collects a lifetime (only!) all items of Czechoslovak civil defense. But this man no knows any brown CO helmets.. (??)

http://svetcivilniobrany.freepage.cz...stranka-81165/


I am, after many hours of searching on the internet CZ found only one link/image of brown CZ CO helmets:



The German helmet at the bottom looks like brown, but it was found, together with HJ knife and several german dog tags = these items are 100% before May 1945. This civil bunker/shelter was built from 1942..

[NickG]

Good stuff! Now were getting somewhere. Interesting research from a Czech member. Thanks Bubble!!
So the export order theory is highly unlikely...US collectors/dealers assumed created fable...lazy research...
The use of these helmets for the Czech armed forces is also unlikely (no crossed swords property stamps) nor photographic proof!
and
Now no proof has emerged of these EVER being issued like that (in Grungelb) for Czechoslovakian Emergency services use ...
Interesting...Always repainted for fire and civil defense use!
Why repaint something if it was refurbished in tan post war...where is the logic here?? Double work and in those quantities?

So that again raises the question: why do these tan minty helmets exist like this?
with war time (1943) virgin (non recycled) German liner pins in base coat grungelb?
Why?
What would be the alternate explanation if not WW2 production?
Question directed towards the doubters, non-believers:
Anybody wants to take a stab on a solid explanation why not WW2 produced ? based on everything revealed thusfar?

[NickG]

html[/url]


You look at these links - these are all pictures from various CO (civil defense) museums or CO exhibitions (Police Muzeum Prag etc) = all only CZ Civil Defense from 1920 to 1990..

And there were no brown helmets..

Indeed! None!! NEIN! NJET!
Evolution of "helma Civilni Abrani" (Civil Defence helmets)

They use initially Czech pattern Army helmets in black (post 333 image 6) as well as repainting black over GrunGelb wartime found German (Sudfront?) helmets.
These were re-painted in black with German or replacement Czech liners...like this M42 fully reconditioned ..
(unlike the tan helmets with 100% German war-time parts!)

[NickG]

Than they switched to CZ army USSR pattern helmets in the 1950's and painted just the outside black... (see mannequin post 333)
or painted the entire helmet black if full reconditioning was needed (replacement liner)
Than they switched from black to orange also using Czech USSR style army helmets just painting the outside orange, but also in white
with bright orange bands! (different services like search and rescue had their own styles too)

but the bottom line is that NEVER was tan color used by Emergenct services! NEVER EVER!
So why were these post war painted in this color for those who don't think its war time paint?
The only anser that remains is for export, but that's a dead-end trail!

So again why do these exist in tan GrunGelb if it is not a Czech (used) color????

[NickG]

Delving in to this post war Czechoslovak emergency services use theory ; Here another image from the 1950's which is fire related.
Shows black German helmets but in this case what appears to be light weight civilian German (fire) helmets (not stahlhelm type) + Black USSR styles!
The German helmet is probably a different type, but still worth showing as this non miitary black color was the norm for emergency services...
Never GrunGelb (tan), never Czechoslovak olive army color either!

So that raises the question: for what purpose would Grungelb painted helmets serve? if reconditioned post war like this in tan? (in HUGE quantities)
In other words for the non-believers: if not war time painted/assembled like this?

[NickG]

black was the norm!

[NickG]

Including the M42!
This is just not a civilian used color...nor is it an Egyptian army color, nor is it a Czech armed forces color either...
It is GERMAN Grungelb...
What else remains as an option if I may ask? VOTE! See poll thread!

[NickG]

OK I figured it out!
Started a poll! and the winner is?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=775517

[DougB]

Believe it or not I have just read the thread for the first time now and honestly after about page 15 I skimmed over the last 7 or 8. A lot to take in!

I am not sure if this image helps or hurts or makes no difference.

For me it has been an interesting read. Were these from SS stockpiles, I really do not know.

But did a mustard tan color exist for the SS?

Yes and here is the proof.

SS M40 ET DD. Vet unit and inscription in the interior including where and when it was captured, and it was in Tripoli, North Africa. Only the exterior is painted mustard tan, the interior is not.

To those who say the SS did not participate in North Africa, you would be right, the WAFFEN SS did not. However careful research shows that the SS did dispatch a small Einsatzgruppen involved in the Final Solution to North Africa. The HQ for this EztG-SS was where this helmet was captured, in Tripoli. I also own the Commanding officer's helmet of this exact EztG-SS, a (normal olive green) M34 who was based out of North Africa for a short time.

Note this is the only image I can find of this helmet right now, I have more but for some reason cant find them and I have to run now for the evening. I will pick it up later in the morning.

[NickG]

Thats a killer tan helmet and if the helmet is SD tripoli or einsatzgruppen related its a very rare one! (I have seen period images of SS rounding up jews
in Lybia or Tunesia I don't remember now).

However this fantastic helmet is not the theme of the thread which is helmets refurbished ground up in tan for mediterranean (sudfront) use...
We're not discussing overpaints and the thread started (by somebody else) incorrectly naming it DAK helmets...
Still a very nice example proving that the SS did paint their helmets in this color! WOW!
It certainly does make the case that there was a need for these in colors other than continental Grau!

[NickG]

Here's an image of Waffen SS troops in Sahariana shirts in Southern France in 1943 recovering an allied weapons (resistance sten guns) drop container.
Note the steel helmet...standard "Grau" color...Perhaps adequate for Southern France use...but kind of stands out, doesn't it?

There certainly was a need for helmets in matching tropical uniform colors, (either unit done overpaints or prepainted, issued in tan), as part of the
Sahariana kit for Süd Front use!

[NickG]

German vehicle parade in Athens, Greece 1943