My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[NickG]

Well and as you see it if they earned the KC they more than likely could get away with wearing a talior made dress uniform as well to boot!

Indeed!

An Obergefreiter is not an officer and not an NCO (that starts with Unteroffizier).
WRONG!
An Obergefreiter is a Mannschaft-Grad (enlisted grade)

The tunic by design is an officers tunic because of the cuffs.

Incorrect info on the rank group! WRONG!


Here 2 examples of VERY LOW RANKING unteroffizieren (technically not yet even NCO status) clearly wearing officer quality uniforms....(exactly like mine) so with a bullion eagle, French cuffs, wider collar!
As the rank chart indicates just a step up from an Obergefreiter, as my Obergefreiter ranked officer's specification tunic.
All highly decorated, their status allowing such a fancy uniform, to include a bullion Breast eagle! Note French cuffs !

Correct info: Unteroffizier is NOT an NCO!

Btw the Unteroffizier rank was considered corporal and NOT a (junior) sergeant so not an NCO)...= Low rank!
You can't translate "Unteroffizier" as "under officer" meaning non commissioned officer, it is not! It is a corporal.(even with the collar tresse in place, but they can act as an NCO) For example during WWII, an Unteroffizier was a section commander in the German Army, a Corporal was a section commander in the British/Canadian Army and a Sergeant was a section commander in the U.S. Army. So, right off the bat we have a conflict between the different nations. A common mistake!

Gruppenführer - rank group "G" = Obergefreiter (mine) and Unteroffizier (pictures) and Unterfeldwebel...(ALL same rank group level)

Just saying it happened such exotic combinations on low ranking uniforms (Gruppenführer - "rank group G", so not even an NCO!)...
Knights cross holders of low rank as illustrated and officer candidates (Offizier Anwarter) could wear such fancy officer grade tunics because of their status!

[BlaineLeamon87]

Good forensics on the buckle wear! You have me convinced Nick!

[NickG]

Thanks
CSI = Forensics don't lie! An "enlisted used" tunic with French cuffs etc...The proof is there!
Enlisted buckle rub!
.




It's a good comparison with this period image tunic since both are 5 button patterns, note enlisted buckle position!
(I guess the naysayers can now resort to claiming it's moth and/or mice damage...exactly where the buckle lip touches and rubs!)

Fun stuff!

.

[compressore]

Nick,
you are wrong with your ranks.

"Unteroffizier" is as rank the lowest NCO level
and
"Unteroffiziere" is the name of the group of all NCO's, starting from rank "Unteroffizier" up to the highest NCO rank

The Ober-/Stabsgefreiter ist NOT an NCO even sometimes they fulfilled positions of those.

That was the case in the Wehrmacht and it is still the case in the Bundeswehr.

Regards
Christian

[Hofstetter]

That's a great looking tunic Nick, original to me

[kapitein]

I find some critics on this apparently untouched privately purchased walk out tunic a bit childish. This uniform is to my opnion original only not standard. Its logical that sons of high ranking officers would proudly take their son to his tailor to have a custom uniform made for sunday walks. Unfortunately we do not have a name but Im sure this soldier made officer.
Nice piece!
Kalitein
BTW even in my family, a general took his son , a NCO, to his Dutch tailor in 1940 to have a nicer uniform made. He indeed ended op as officer material. I have this uniform as its a family piece.

[Zip3120]

Ciao Nick
Forensics sure are for your thesis.
This is a rare combination, however it existed as you shown in portraits.
I think that the most convincing proof is the buckle wear.
All the proofs you have shown could be refuted (fading etc.) but I think the buckle wear is very difficult to disprove.

[NickG]

__________________________________________________ ________
in·dis·put·a·ble

/ˌindəˈspyo͞odəb(ə)l/

adjective: indisputable

unable to be challenged or denied
_______________________________________


Yes indeed indisputable proof....this enlisted buckle wear...So the naysayers have now vanished from the scene, which is OK.
Honestly I should have shown the buckle wear from the very beginning but I like to challenge their attempts to destroy my tunic ....
and than post the "slam-dunk" proof at the very end....

Anyway it will be finished as an officer candidate impression.
Here some nice images of an Officer candidate with a cyphered strap. ("GD") That combination was also questioned earlier in the thread...

[NickG]

These are all Offizier Anwarter ("Obergefreiter-OA") field wear uniform examples with stahlhelm. Note cyphered shoulderstraps!
(M40 combat tunic is not mine..."borrowed from the web" for study purposes)

[jacquesf]

Nick you are the only person I know that will use a picture of an orange to explain the existence of an apple. Some of your explanations were valid, but the use of pictures not so relevant, making me loose interest in your argument. Sometimes less is more , or there is a time to shut up. J

[NickG]

Nick,
you are wrong with your ranks.

"Unteroffizier" is as rank the lowest NCO level
and
"Unteroffiziere" is the name of the group of all NCO's, starting from rank "Unteroffizier" up to the highest NCO rank

The Ober-/Stabsgefreiter ist NOT an NCO even sometimes they fulfilled positions of those.

That was the case in the Wehrmacht and it is still the case in the Bundeswehr.

Regards
Christian

Nope! I do agree it is so in the modern Bundeswehr but NOT so in the Wehrmacht-Heer...
Many get this confused and its wrong in reference books even...

Unteroffizier translates as "subordinate-officer" and, when meaning the specific rank, is in modern-day usage considered the equivalent to sergeant under the NATO rank scale.
Historically the Unteroffizier rank was considered a corporal and thus similar in duties to a British Army corporal. In peacetime an Unteroffizier was a career soldier who trained conscripts or led squads and platoons. He could rise through the ranks to become an NCO (Unterfeldwebel) which is the lowest NCO rank.
Now the "box" is closed and pips can be earned, = true NCO status!
"Unteroffiziere" is the name of the group of all NCO's, starting from rank "Unterfeldwebel" up to the highest NCO rank. Unteroffizier is corporal in the WW2 Heer.

In other words those RK Trager are very low ranking (non NCO) men who are wearing officer style uniforms with French cuffs etc...A status thing!

[NickG]

Nick you are the only person I know that will use a picture of an orange to explain the existence of an apple. Some of your explanations were valid, but the use of pictures not so relevant, making me loose interest in your argument. Sometimes less is more , or there is a time to shut up. J

Comment from the man who found the tunic under the floorboards: (and who started this thread of an exciting and unique untouched uniform)

I do not understand it...proves are clear and there is no doubt, even some early post war POW theory is nonsence...there were so many uniforms after war
here in Czechoslovakia, so is imposible why someone would remake it....on my own...I feel some jealousy here...this is very rare tunic and maybe only one in the world....
and if you see jaques comments it seems to me, then what he can not have, or never see.... he wants to destroy....Regards Libor

[jacquesf]

Comment from the man who found the tunic under the floorboards:

I do not understand it...proves are clear and there is no doubt, even some early post war POW theory is nonsence...there were so many uniforms after war
here in Czechoslovakia, so is imposible why someone would remake it....on my own...I feel some jealousy here...this is very rare tunic and maybe only one in the world....
and if you see jaques comments it seems to me, then what he can not have, or never see.... he wants to destroy....Regards Libor

See you are missing my point as per usual and btw you can let Libor know or he can read for himself, I don't collect moth eaten rubbish. J

[BlaineLeamon87]

Comment from the man who found the tunic under the floorboards: (and who started this thread of an exciting and unique untouched uniform)

I do not understand it...proves are clear and there is no doubt, even some early post war POW theory is nonsence...there were so many uniforms after war
here in Czechoslovakia, so is imposible why someone would remake it....on my own...I feel some jealousy here...this is very rare tunic and maybe only one in the world....
and if you see jaques comments it seems to me, then what he can not have, or never see.... he wants to destroy....Regards Libor

I've been seeing the same pattern as well....

[NickG]

Sorry, but I am a 100% non believer in this . J

"Eating crow" is an American colloquial idiom, meaning humiliation by admitting wrongness or having been proven wrong after taking a strong position.
Crow is presumably foul-tasting in the same way that being proven wrong might be emotionally hard to swallow.