My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[compressore]

Wrong

Nope! I do agree it is so in the modern Bundeswehr but NOT so in the Wehrmacht-Heer...
Many get this confused and its wrong in reference books even...

Unteroffizier translates as "subordinate-officer" and, when meaning the specific rank, is in modern-day usage considered the equivalent to sergeant under the NATO rank scale.
Historically the Unteroffizier rank was considered a corporal and thus similar in duties to a British Army corporal. In peacetime an Unteroffizier was a career soldier who trained conscripts or led squads and platoons. He could rise through the ranks to become an NCO (Unterfeldwebel) which is the lowest NCO rank.
Now the "box" is closed and pips can be earned, = true NCO status!
"Unteroffiziere" is the name of the group of all NCO's, starting from rank "Unterfeldwebel" up to the highest NCO rank. Unteroffizier is corporal in the WW2 Heer.

In other words those RK Trager are very low ranking (non NCO) men who are wearing officer style uniforms with French cuffs etc...A status thing!

Nick,
stick to your interpretation of the Wehrmacht rank system and be happy with it.

Unteroffizier is the lowest NCO rank..equivalent to the Maat in the KM.
H.V.Bl. 1939 -C - Nr. 963 Ziff.2 und Nr. 1137

I am not interested in any of your comparisons with other army ranks as it not relevant.

Regards
Christian

[jacquesf]

Definition: verbal diarrhea:
- "Somebody who doesn't know how to shut up. They love the sound of their own voices and continue to drone on and on repeating the same ponits over and over again in different ways before they wrap up what they're saying."
- A serious disease which, once it has control of a person, causes them to spew forth incoherent babble from the bowels of the voicebox. Often extremely frustrating for the victim and extremely hilarious for the observer. "

[jacquesf]

I've been seeing the same pattern as well....

Your powers of reason and deduction are right up there with Nick's and formed in such a short period of time, true genius. J

[NickG]

Nick,
stick to your interpretation of the Wehrmacht rank system and be happy with it.

Unteroffizier is the lowest NCO rank..equivalent to the Maat in the KM.
H.V.Bl. 1939 -C - Nr. 963 Ziff.2 und Nr. 1137

I am not interested in any of your comparisons with other army ranks as it not relevant.

Regards
Christian

Yes it can be complicated...and there is confusion...misinterpretation and I also am puzzled...NCO status or not?
More here on this matter (Unteroffizier versus NCO discussion)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=189648

Maybe others can shed their light on this? Either way it is a low rank and there are pictures with officer style tunics, the point I was trying to make.
Thanks

[compressore]

The mistake made is to compare it with other armies and try to fit it into the ranks.
Read the German regulations and it is clear: The Unteroffizier as a rank is the lowest NCO.
The regulations gives clear rules when such a promotion can be made (and it is not an automatic promotion based on time served) including that an established post must be available.
For the German ranks, Wikipedia is correct (I am not speaking about the rank comparison).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...eroffiziere.29

I have compared it with the Bundeswehr in my previous post as the structure is the very same from the Wehrmacht until today (except that Hauptfeldwebel became a rank instead of an appointment)

Regards
Christian

BTW, this thread has turned ugly....

[NickG]

The mistake made is to compare it with other armies and try to fit it into the ranks.
Read the German regulations and it is clear: The Unteroffizier as a rank is the lowest NCO.
The regulations gives clear rules when such a promotion can be made (and it is not an automatic promotion based on time served) including that an established post must be available.
For the German ranks, Wikipedia is correct (I am not speaking about the rank comparison).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...eroffiziere.29

I have compared it with the Bundeswehr in my previous post as the structure is the very same from the Wehrmacht until today (except that Hauptfeldwebel became a rank instead of an appointment)

Regards
Christian

BTW, this thread has turned ugly....

Thanks Christian. Yes a complicated matter. Thanks for the Wikipedia link! The forum link that I posted is also quite enlightening with different viewpoints on this matter!
(you can't compare the Prussian rank system with other (UK-USA) armies or with the German BW-Nato! At least that is something we know for sure! It is a debate topic!)

I agree some ugliness...So lets keep it "nice"...no more trash talk about "moth eaten rubbish". I think this special tunic deserves better! Very few are out there...
Would love to see another low ranker survivor with officer spec tailoring! and in any condition really, can't be too picky with rare configurations
and even the period photographic record is sparse! Very little documentation so it must have been very rare, which explains the initial non-believers negative opinions!

I will be posting the final result shortly (restoration repairs are almost completed). So stay tuned!
Thanks

[NickG]

I will be posting the final result shortly (restoration repairs are almost completed). So stay tuned!
Thanks

From under the floor boards of a Czech house to my California based collection!
OK here we go...my "shabby moth eaten rubbish" big reveal!

Not too shabby really! I only did some minor partial repairs...It's a period untouched find and the damage reflects that!
(the 1940 dated moth repellent pouch is back in the pocket btw!)
The big sleeve hole will be repaired by Virginia over at OTM. She is the best of the best!
The straps (1 hole each) have been filled in with period M36 bottle green wool. Donor material came from a damaged collar.

[NickG]

I took the liberty and added an officer grade Schiffchen (overseas cap) which is really not accurate but I like the silver crown piping on this enlisted grade field wear cap.
I would like to eventually upgrade to a Pz.Gren piped schirmmutze visor!

[NickG]

Obergefreiter-OA (Offizier Anwarter)

[NickG]

Displayed with a quality enlisted aluminum parade buckle which is appropriate for an "ausgehe" uniform.

I did not mean to hi-jack this thread titled "M36 jacket, never cleaner,original find" but since I acquired the uniform I was entitled to do so!
Medals are in place of the existing loops. Technically it should also have a IAB or GAB since it has a CCC...Medals are reflective of a battle experienced
Obergefreiter earning cadet status ("OA") to become an officer and his quality uniform reflects that status.
Thanks for looking.

PS: If anybody has something similar (low ranking uniform in officers quality), please add to the thread. Would like to know how rare these are...!
It will be an indicator if there is little or no participation! Period pictures are fine too of course. I am not holding my breath!

[kapitein]

Nice officier anwarter pzgrenadier great job!

[NickG]

Nice officier anwarter pzgrenadier great job!

Thanks for the thumbs up Kapitein...
Other similar examples are not exactly pouring in after I invited to post such exotic combinations here!...
So it must be rare!
One final shot in the war bunker! Bye! Off to the next project!

[Tim O'Keefe]

Well this tunic isn't an"untouched" tunic anymore is it ? If it ever was, which has still not been proven...

Johhny's post #43 is still the best point on this thread, what is your next project ?

[kapitein]

Funny that oddities or unregular but proven to have existed items or uniforms are always shot down on this forum... Without being hand inspected 1st by the critisizers if original or not. When any doubt arises you get burned on WAF. This is why many collectors do not show on WAF what they have in their collection....
Why not have a more open mind?

[compressore]

I think its not about "unregular or unproven", its about to interpret something into it which is far-fetched and lacking of any substantiation.
I like the tunic very much...but personally I would not add anything to it without being sure that it was once there.
To upgrade the tunic with OA stripes is IMHO misleading towards something which is NOT there.
No one of us would accept this from any dealer...
To add a CCC ? No way...


The way how its presented and what was "made" of it is the reason why here some many negative comments.

Sometimes "less is more"....

For me an easy explanation would do: A Obergefreiter with money had let made himself a nice tunic to impress his girlfriend. No CCC, no OA, no KC, no warrior....just a vain soldier.

Regards
Christian