My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[NickG]

Oh and also...
Interesting where that period repair is located.....in line with the belt....possible wear from gear???? bayo maybe?? It appears to be "worn through" damage...not a tear!!
Just a thought!??!?!?!?!??

Thanks for the thumbs up B & E !
Yes no doubt an untouched enlisted piece and the Obergefreiter use has been proven without a doubt. (OA status or just vain, who knows? The latter would be frowned upon though!)
The wear spot area is indeed very interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. 100% a period repair in matching material. Not something you would see on an officer used tunic!
Soldiers usually paraded in their waffenrocks or issue feldbluse with K98 pouches and bayonets (such as these enlisted officer candidates)

Of course for "Best dress use" they would NEVER wear ammo pouches...however they WOULD indeed wear their K98 seitenwaffen. (like an officer would wear a dress dagger)
It is a wear area that is related to gear, no doubt about that! It is worn through and period repaired so I guess it could correspond with a Bayonet...What else could have caused this?
(an officers dagger or sword hangs low and this tunic has no provisions for such suspension hardware, my initial hunch that it was a true enlisted piece !)

This is further proof of this unique tunic's "enlisted use"...So another piece of forensics that confirms it!The case is just building and building...undeniable!
It is a very rare quality variation of an enlisted tunic.
Now I need to find a nice enlisted Pz.Gren. farbe visor for it and preferably in gabardine officer quality cloth! A difficult quest no doubt, but it would look amazing together!

[NickG]

Lets investigate this further!
Pocket wear from a sagging belt because of the heavy enlisted bayonet rubbing!! Good eye B & E!
Usually worn more towards the back though but something heavy caused this no doubt!

[kapitein]

Hole; Seems to me to be a stiched up 9mm Ruski bullit hole most likely from the last ditch defence of Berlin in 1945. I have periode picture proof evidence that fighting in your best dress uniform, such as the parade uniform, was the thing to do at that stage of the war! This seems to fit my theory!

[NickG]

Hole; Seems to me to be a stiched up 9mm Ruski bullit hole most likely from the last ditch defence of Berlin in 1945. I have periode picture proof evidence that fighting in your best dress uniform, such as the parade uniform, was the thing to do at that stage of the war! This seems to fit my theory!

Very flawed theory brother! Since there are no blood stains... but I know its just some sarcasm...We really don't know how that hole was created...
but I certainly like member B&E's theory on a bayonet rubbing there, albeit it being somewhat too far forward on the belt...Who knows?



But it makes you wonder what else could have caused that area to be worn like that and in need of a repair?

The tunic is immaculate on the inside but has some storage rust stains transferring over from the internal belt to the liner...since its been stashed away for decades...
Btw
it would be a killer piece to display with this visor hat, but it's already sold! Bummer..Anybody with info on one give me a shout! In this farbe!

[naxos]

Yes no doubt an untouched enlisted piece and the Obergefreiter use has been proven without a doubt.

This is further proof of this unique tunic's "enlisted use"...So another piece of forensics that confirms it!

It is a very rare quality variation of an enlisted tunic.

The case is just building and building...undeniable!

WTF! ... do you read what you write?

Nick, nothing about this sad tunic is proven.

Forensics is the use of science and technology to establish facts.

What "facts", besides that someone actually wore this tunic with a belt, have you established? Speculation and wishful thinking at best.

Having to use the words "unique" and "very rare variation" when describing any uniform is not very reassuring.

However, since your homegrown "forensics" can verify almost anything beyond doubt, you don't require my opinion.

In the future I won't participate in one of these useless discussions. A lesson others have learned before me.

You won!

.

[NickG]

You won!

Thanks and according to the congratulatory emails I got from quite few people who rather not participate openly on WAF, I sure did.
Here's one private message! I will not identify the WAF member:
It sucks that a person has to deal with such BS on WAF! Every body knows everything!! What about a discussion??
Anyway you west coasters sure like to argue!! I like it !! I think FANTASTIC!

Even Besslein likes it a lot. He is expelled from WAF so I will identify him... I sent him the pictures and he said its 1000% real and really rare.
He has seen a lowly SS enlisted tunic made just like this (he primarily collects W-SS as you may know, one of the top collectors in Europe)
In his words:
Hello Nick sorry for so late answer but i was on travel last week.
you have here a nice original tunic ,its often happend in waffen ss that some soldier/nco get offizier looking uniforms ,i think in wehrmacht it has worked the same way and not often seen

If you tally up the positive posts of the participants that did openly post an opinion (against the negative big guns) I also won the favorable opinion.
Sorry that I can not change that!

It's a unique tunic which was misidentified, (trashed really like it was a post war creation for a school play...come on!)
and this opinion by the self-professed big guns of the uniform collecting world.

If you disagree and its not unique or not even real, please BY ALL MEANS show me another one that is...., or better yet;
a few of them in various waffenfarbes. We can learn from it...but I will not be holding my breath!

Lets do: soldat or Oberschutze + Gefreiter/Obergefreiter while we're at it! I will let you pick the farbes!!
(no need for officer candidate examples since that was an embellishment I confess!)

Line 'em up if you think its not unique! I'll even accept some moth damage!

-MUST be very low enlisted rank
-MUST be officers quality gabardine, French cuffs, oversized collar, basically all the good stuff like my period picture from the Davis' book!
-MUST be without dagger slit/hangars (unheard of for officers dress tunics, which this one isn't)

Go for it! (this regardless if mine is what I, any many, believe it is)
Show me a "good" legit one! (since we know these did exit as I showed with the period picture!)

or if that's too much to ask lets do it backwards! drop the "enlisted gabardine" challenge!
Show me an officers tunic with this exact same "enlisted buckle" damage and same officers tunic WITHOUT dagger provisions!
Destructing my perceived forensics, my "sketchy" proof..my wishful thinking...Please!

Btw Johnny didn't trust the tunic also because he thought he knew the seller... a guy from Poland, whom he's met (from Posen or Breslau, I don't remember now)
but its actually from a TOTALLY different guy, different name and even different country! From somebody who is known for his "attic finds" in the Czech Republic.

[naxos]

If you disagree and its not unique ... show me another one that is or better yet;

Line 'em up if you think its not unique!
.

I can't show you another one like that, not with those Waffenrock straps ... that's my point. You don't even get what I'm saying.


.

[NickG]

I can't show you another one like that, not with those Waffenrock straps ... that's my point. You don't even get what I'm saying.


.

OK show me one WITHOUT Waffenrock straps!!Show me ANY variation of a "real one". A "gabardine Gefreiter"! I am not picky and want to be educated!
There is NOTHING wrong with dress straps "Waffenrock style" sew-in style (with cyphers or not) to appear on a officer's quality tunic used by an enlisted man.
Compare!



The photographic proof shows it! (same straps)
but I think what you are trying to way is that Pz.Gren Reg 108 was formed in 1942 so way after the Waffenrock was abolished so that connection does not work...
I get it...The insignia predates the unit....OK so where do these authentic straps come from? What unit are these authentic straps connected with?
Jager regiment 108? It does not matter now, does it? as they are real, everybody can see that and the uniform is real, that's the important and critical match...
(not the unit identifier)
Also they are tight, they've been on the uniform since day one, professionally installed, nothing has been opened up (later) in the liner to insert these.
It has all been thoroughly checked! Even the condition (moth damage) and the fading area of these enlisted straps matches the tunic. There is no argument!

Questioning the straps because of a possible anomaly is not going to kill the authenticity of this uniform.
Nice try but sorry! It is all a moot point really this "waffenrock straps" red flag issue argument....but thanks for sharing your "concern"....
and please DO make an attempt an try to dispute my "homegrown" forensics....with facts contradicting what has been found and proven! By all means!

So no uniforms of similar quality and rank to share than...??? That's unfortunate, but I am not surprised ! I would have really like to see more examples! Oh well...
Even the period photographic record is scare so I am forced to repeat the Davis book picture again, but I guess that proves it's rarity which is of course fine with me,
a good and rare purchase!

[NickG]

Btw got another PM today! I will not mention the WAF member...
In his words:
__________________________________________________ _
I like the uniform and I think its a nice original piece, untouched find.
I would have kept it like it was (no OA) but this is a personal preference.
For me its just a jacket of a soldier who could afford a nice quality to wear it at home.
Schoene Jacke,
kein Problem.
C.
_______________________________________________

Anyway lets move on. Continuing to attack the piece is really a fruitless attempt at this point! (page 11)
There was a verdict already and I came out on top with the acquisition of this unique piece.
and yes I won the public opinion on it fair and square...(with solid forensics) so no hard feelings Naxos! Thanks!

[DKNYC71]

Obviously Nick is 1000% convinced that this is an untouched "time capsule" tunic. So why should anyone rain on his parade. I say G-d bless! If Nick is a believer that he has a stellar item, congratulations are in order.

When I started collecting German militaria many moons and decades ago, I was told by fellow US Militaria collectors that most German collectors are never 100% sure if what they have is real, and truth be told, do not want to know. Ofcourse that is a blanket general statement which is not always true, but nevertheless has a good amount of validity. We definitely see a great deal of the aforementioned here on the WAF. Usually it is threads like this one, where a fellow collector writes pages of posts and offers a multitude of notated photos to prove to others their belief in a given item, regardless of what other seasoned collectors think. But in the end, the collector is only attempting to convince themselves.

In my experience, when an unquestionable stellar item is posted, it has 2-3 pages of praise. On the other hand, when a questionable item is posted that needs convincing or "suspension of the disbelief", we observe many pages, sometimes over 10 pages trying to establish validity

[NickG]

Obviously Nick is 1000% convinced that this is an untouched "time capsule" tunic. So why should anyone rain on his parade. I say G-d bless! If Nick is a believer that he has a stellar item, congratulations are in order.

Thanks! Good word choice "time capsule", as it even came with untouched 1940 moth repellent! A true survivor and the damage proves it.
Yeah I fortunately have the advantage since its in hand. Had I shown the EM buckle wear early on in this thread it could have been a shorter thread no doubt...
but the naysayers are entrenched now...reputation to defend....(made up officers piece suspicion)

The tally btw is 12 positives + 4 private positives and 6 don't /not entirely sure... So a 16 versus 6 final opinion that is a good piece, which is good enough for me!

In my experience, when an unquestionable stellar item is posted, it has 2-3 pages of praise. On the other hand, when a questionable item is posted that needs convincing or "suspension of the disbelief", we observe many pages, sometimes over 10 pages trying to establish validity

That reasoning ONLY applies to text book/common items or knock offs of text book items. So a "one-looker" (1 page) decisions, usually on contract items where you look for the typical construction clues. This kind of a combination tunic has never been shown in the entire history on WAF. That alone lengthens the discussion because of skepticism...can it really be true such a unique and rare combination? YES! Nobody has been able to show another one thus far,.so that tells me more than enough!
The other reason why the thread became long is the sparring sessions between Johnny, Naxo, Jacques and myself. Some got their feathers ruffled...oh well...
Something like this warrants more pages too... Time to move on. I appreciate the overwhelming thumbs up. This piece deserves that!

Lets take one last final look (since nobody else can post a "gabardine Gefreiter" it appears...). Thanks for all the participation.

[Hans Kristian]

Obviously Nick is 1000% convinced that this is an untouched "time capsule" tunic. So why should anyone rain on his parade. I say G-d bless! If Nick is a believer that he has a stellar item, congratulations are in order.

When I started collecting German militaria many moons and decades ago, I was told by fellow US Militaria collectors that most German collectors are never 100% sure if what they have is real, and truth be told, do not want to know. Ofcourse that is a blanket general statement which is not always true, but nevertheless has a good amount of validity. We definitely see a great deal of the aforementioned here on the WAF. Usually it is threads like this one, where a fellow collector writes pages of posts and offers a multitude of notated photos to prove to others their belief in a given item, regardless of what other seasoned collectors think. But in the end, the collector is only attempting to convince themselves.

In my experience, when an unquestionable stellar item is posted, it has 2-3 pages of praise. On the other hand, when a questionable item is posted that needs convincing or "suspension of the disbelief", we observe many pages, sometimes over 10 pages trying to establish validity

This is the most sensible post I have read in a long time...

[NickG]

Real officer quality Obergefreiter with "embedded chevron" partially lifted now...
No worries I have period thread to fix this.
Lets just put all this negative nonsense to bed once and for all!

[NickG]

Here's another one of my MANY uniforms, a promotion. The "Winkel" darker ghost (chevron) will always remain...Its all about the forensics!
Another attempt to destroy an original tunic by keyboard commandos thwarted! Have a nice day!

PS
Btw these guys could buy and wear what they were able to afford!
Here a period image of another Obergefreiter in a "geschonte feldbluse" piped and with French cuffs, in gabardine...(any enlisted examples out there to show?)
More common with senior NCO's and officers, as these enlisted men would wear their issue Waffenrocks (until these got abolished when the war broke out and
they would upgrade their M36/M40 uniforms for "best dress" occassions).
Anyway its all about the size of the wallet, since these exotic low ranking examples are private purchase uniforms...an option...Not common...AND RARE!
So of course such a combination gets frowned upon...I understand. No problem! It is real! Time to move on!

[naxos]

Last picture you showed is pre M36, the old Reichswehr style uniform - they all had french cuffs.