My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[Johnny R]

Okay, I will not waste anymore time with this now that I am safe and have a "pass".

[NickG]

Nick have you ever thought it might have been an officer stripped of his ranked due to a courtmartial, down to enlisted rank? J

I thought that too as a possibility but since it has no dagger slit and never had provisions for dagger support hangers...it was born this way for the stylish Obergefreiter! Honestly was...It will get the officer candidate loops to complete the impression, since those are gone...To me that is the only logical explanation for this combo to exist and the corporal chevron shows no fading underneath!
Nor does it show any fading under the wide enlisted shoulderstraps that are professionally installed. Been there forever!

[WWIIBuff]

Nice pick-up in my opinion Nick. Unfortunately I do not have enough knowledge to say what is right or wrong about the badges and accoutrements on the tunic itself. However, I do know that many different combinations existed during the war that today's "expert" collectors would wrongly say were not possible.

Overall I like to look of it and think that there could be a few different explanations. Having the tunic in hand sometimes validates something's originality even though it may not look right in pictures. I hope I get a chance to examine it personally next time I see you.

[jacquesf]

Another possibility was that it was a field tunic used by an elder sibling who was an officer and killed at the front and then used, due to a lack of tunics. by a low ranked brother of his, J

[NickG]

Another possibility was that it was a field tunic used by an elder sibling who was an officer and killed at the front and then used, due to a lack of tunics. by a low ranked brother of his, J

Yes Johnny also mentioned that as a possibility...(which I quoted-para phrased as possibility #2), but those things did happen for sure! Again the fact that it lacks a dagger slit and "dolch gehang" on such a dress uniform is big.... a solid clue and tells me it is
NOT a hand-me-down ex-officers recycled tunic...Tailored for a "soldat". That alone was enough to convince me to pull the trigger and acquiring it! No collar scars for wider officer collar tabs either! It all adds for me (not a wild theory, no rainbows, santas and unicorns)

I would love to see/find a period image of a similar combination! Anybody?

[BlaineLeamon87]

I see nothing wrong with it IMO, looks like another private made piece that has been mistaken as "not authentic" since it is not textbook in every way. I myself am leaning to officer candidate. Nice piece!

[NickG]

I see nothing wrong with it IMO, looks like another private made piece that has been mistaken as "not authentic" since it is not textbook in every way. I myself am leaning to officer candidate. Nice piece!

Thanks. That's what I am thinking (for it to exist like this!) Officer candidate status! The loops have arrived from Germany btw. Will be on it shortly to complete the impression!
Usually you see such "Cadets" or "Fahnenjunker" (offizieranwarter) photographed in their "enlisted quality" uniforms still (+ loops added ) as they were not yet entitled
to wear private purchase officer grade uniforms...not until after they pass the Officer's Candidate Course....(entry exam) but who knows?
I guess he could have done so (accepted for officer training and undertaking at least two months of platoon commander training) and now opted to have his
"Obergefreiter-Fahnenjunker" uniform made in officers quality/officers specifications but without the "portepee" („Degentrage, Degengehenk“) attributes...
Simply because the dagger was not earned yet...not commissioned, so no slit, no dagger support straps... which makes sense that this tunic lacks it and rank badged like this!
Here 6 period images (with such double loops in place). From 1940-1942 they were also known as (OB), short for Offizierbewerber (Officer Applicant), so "Obergefreiter-OB".
From 1943-1945 the title was changed to "OA" = Offizieranwärter (officer candidate) so in this case "Obergefreiter-OA".

[BlaineLeamon87]

Thanks. That's what I am thinking (for it to exist like this!) Officer candidate status! The loops have arrived from Germany btw. Will be on it shortly to complete the impression!
Usually you see such "Cadets" or "Fahnenjunker" (offizieranwarter) photographed in their "enlisted quality" uniforms still (+ loops added ) as they were not yet entitled
to wear private purchase officer grade uniforms...not until after they pass the Officer's Candidate Course....(entry exam) but who knows?
I guess he could have done so (accepted for officer training and undertaking at least two months of platoon commander training) and now opted to have his
"Obergefreiter-Fahnenjunker" uniform made in officers quality/officers specifications but without the "portepee" („Degentrage, Degengehenk“) attributes...
Simply because the dagger was not earned yet...not commissioned, so no slit, no dagger support straps... which makes sense that this tunic lacks it and rank badged like this!
Here 6 period images (with such double loops in place). From 1940-1942 they were also known as (OB), short for Offizierbewerber (Officer Applicant), so "Obergefreiter-OB".
From 1943-1945 the title was changed to "OA" = Offizieranwärter (officer candidate) so in this case "Obergefreiter-OA".

Well and as you see it if they earned the KC they more than likely could get away with wearing a talior made dress uniform as well to boot!

[NickG]

That is a good point. A "soldat" who showed leadership and bravery, being well decorated would certainly be chosen for the officer Academy course,
by-passing the NCO career path all together. A well decorated soldier, Golden CCC or especially with a Knights Cross could have worn whatever he wanted...(my tunic example...the loop above the pocket is quite high so maybe it is for a close combat clasp and not a ribbon bar!)
You even had "Bravery Officers" (in German "Tapferkeitsoffiziere"), who never attended an academy (Kriegsschule) ...they just got their commission
right there on the battlefield.

[jacquesf]

Nick you are guys a having fun, but really I am with Johny here, you guys a dabbling in the realm of fiction sometimes. I have looked at thousands of period pics and never seen anything close to what you are propagating here or what this jacket represents. J

[longislandercjv]

Everyone has opinions.
Some might be accurate, some not.
Very rarely will a group of collectors agree on "non standard"
items that turn up. 70+ years later, each of us envisions
what the conditions were during the war.
Those of us who have had the good fortune to talk with German
WWII combat veterans have gained their invaluable insight;
attention to regulations, availability of uniforms & accouterments
etc. were of little or no consequence, especially in the field and later
in the war.
I, for one, like the "non-standard" field made / modified items.
I have my own criteria for these pieces that I add to the collection,
and the only opinion I need is my own.

This tunic IMO is original and unaltered from what I see in the photos.
The "non-standard" features are quite interesting and reflective of what I've noted above.

[supperpotato]

While I was searching for officer candidate, I found these interesting photos. Any thoughts?

[supperpotato]

more

[NickG]

Unrelated...
These are all Ost truppen and these "bands" on their shoulderboards is a rank system developed for Eastern volunteers.
but the effort is appreciated. Would love to find a period image of a similar uniform! (corporal ranked, officer specifications!)

[Johnny R]

"Those of us who have had the good fortune to talk with German
WWII combat veterans have gained their invaluable insight;
attention to regulations, availability of uniforms & accouterments
etc. were of little or no consequence, especially in the field and later
in the war. "

This really is not true to the point where they were wearing anything they could find aside from POW camps. I lived in Germany for several years in the 1980s and have spoken to hundreds of German vets from Generals to privates since I started collecting in the 70s. If you look at the majority of photos most uniform items and configurations will be regulation or close. The same with Vet bring back and family pick up pieces.

This is a very odd combination of different elements for a tailor-made tunic. In looking at the history of the 108 PzGren (14th Panzer Division) I also could find no indication they were ever near the Czech Republic during the War.