My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[Johnny R]

I heard there is a tree in Croatia that is full of enigmatic tunics. I cannot wait for your next treasure and disquisition.

[naxos]

... and my period picture settled the matter!

No, it did not!

How would that picture validate your shabby tunic?


I should have known that engaging in this thread is a Sisyphus session.


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[NickG]

When was this tunic tailored?

What time frame is this shoulder strap from?

Both look pre 1940 to me

The "108" is in old Reichswehr numerals and embroidery - the strap is the 1938 type.

And regarding your raised issues on the font of the cyphers not exactly matching up with the time frame of the pz.Gren regiment,
well I invite you to study this image taken in France in 1944.
This NCO upgraded his tunic with a fancier waffen rock eagle and RW font (early style "curly") embroidered numerals! OMG! 1944!

[NickG]

So the uniform went from "impossible combination" to "not a dress but field wear officers tunic without dagger slit"
(now that's a mouth full!) and incorrectly restored around 1945 and-a half...hence the 1946 moth damage and planted 1940 dated moth repellent from ebay...WOW!
and finally now its just been degraded to just a plain "shabby" uniform. The self proclaimed uniform gods have spoken
(and Brian Davis' book picture has been photo shopped because again it is an impossible combination, remember?
Oops the book came out in 1970's there was no photo shop yet...my mistake!)
Had I posted that period proof image earlier it would have been a much shorter thread no doubt...
Now positions are firmly entrenched and there is no turning back since that would problematic...Reputations to defend you know!
So instead now resorting to mockery and tree images! I really like my period image much better! Worth reposting!

[Johnny R]

This is almost as good as the Nederland SS Artillery Brigade tunic thread. I suspect you probably are being considered for a Nobel with your cutting edge analyses.

As long as you are happy that is all that matters.

I have visions of you dancing around a collection of inflatable Christmas trees wearing the tunic and a tutu listening to Patsy Cline and that makes me happy.

[NickG]

This is almost as good as the Nederland SS Artillery Brigade tunic thread. I suspect you probably are being considered for a Nobel with your cutting edge analyses.

As long as you are happy that is all that matters.

I have visions of you dancing around a collection of inflatable Christmas trees wearing the tunic and a tutu listening to Patsy Cline and that makes me happy.

Yes that one WAS a mistake, a misidentification but guess what? I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO WAS ABLE TO IDENTIFY IT AS A SWISS POSTWAR REWORK. Most thought something Astro-Hungarian PERIOD rework, not an outright fake. I guess I do know uniforms after all and solved my own riddle! Anyway I admitted it was a wrong hunch, the Dutch "4" Brigade connection.
Sometimes its good to admit you have something wrong! You should try it!
and yes I am happy with the uniform as it matches the period portrait and all the forensics show its old and untouched!

[Johnny R]

It must be painful to be so intelligent. You have not demonstrated anything is real, you just have shown that other tunics are real and that you think it is real. As noted you have proved nothing and the tunic remains very unusual and in my opinion is likely to not be period assembled. With the repairs etc. again I suspect a stripped officer tunic, probably POW worn that has had the insignia applied after the war by someone who was not very familiar with tunics. That for me is the most likely answer but you can (and always will) form your own opinions. You need to carefully read what other people write and think about it before making these assertions about who is wrong and right. Like I told you, the only person that knows if this is indeed original is the person who applied the insignia.

[NickG]

It must be painful to be so intelligent. You have not demonstrated anything is real, you just have shown that other tunics are real and that you think it is real. As noted you have proved nothing and the tunic remains very unusual and in my opinion is likely to not be period assembled. With the repairs etc. again I suspect a stripped officer tunic, probably POW worn that has had the insignia applied after the war by someone who was not very familiar with tunics. That for me is the most likely answer but you can (and always will) form your own opinions. You need to carefully read what other people write and think about it before making these assertions about who is wrong and right. Like I told you, the only person that knows if this is indeed original is the person who applied the insignia.

That's fine. Fortunately I have it in hand and can make a much better judgment.
Proper fading, professionally installed shoulder straps etc...
We all talk about how critical embedded insignia is which is CLEARLY the case here... So the naysayers now resort to saying it was restored decades ago (1946?)and moths can do damage at any time...which explains the forensics, not a recent put-together...
Well that's convenient and fine, so we have firmly entrenched positions, a reputation to defend...Lets leave it at that.
All the clear forensics are less important than the reputation, once a position has been established..."such a combination is impossible" ...there is no turning back...
Regardless of a period portrait proving otherwise...

Btw when buckram gets wet and dries later...well it turns hard, the collar which is reinforced and the litzen tabs that are reinforced suffered under the same conditions and not very flexible...a match, been mated forever! Again the forensics are there for it to be authentic. (and found with the other clothing I showed which are all authentic too)

Had these litzen been attached to a bonestock M46 tunic this would have been a 1 page thread...oh well...

[naxos]

... and finally now its just been degraded to just a plain "shabby" uniform.

Shabby, yes it looks shabby ... and that before the moths got hold of it.

Now, I say "shabby" not to hurt your feelings or because I'm frustrated.

I say "shabby" because the condition of this tunic (before the moths), the wear, the insignia used and the assembly, all provide important clues to the probability of being authentic in its current configuration.


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[PZKG]

Have you ever been in an old house in europe?
The moist gets trapped in the walls and insulation and also probably the tunic making them "grow" together".
SO if it has been lying there for lets say 10-20 years...more than enough.
And also the moth damage, could have happened at any time.

Why can't you just be happy with your tunic and shut up instead of trying to be a "crusader" for these sad items trying to make everyone see what you imagine or whatever.
We are not as stupid and unexperienced as you might think...in fact...it might be the other way around.

Everytime I see your name I almost have a second heart attack...but I have to see the next thing your psychidelic mind has made up anyway.

[Johnny R]

I never told you that this combination was impossible, I do not think anyone did. I told you is is not probable.

I do not care about "defending my reputation" and do not consider myself an expert. This is a hobby and somethingto pass time with and I really do not care about it much especially as I enter the later part of my life. No one knows everything. The more one learns about this stuff, should lead to having more questions-not more answers.

Assertions that things are "100% original" or "100% fake" with things like this are folly and come from a lack of knowledge and experience not from a breadth of knowledge and experience.

[NickG]

Have you ever been in an old house in europe?
The moist gets trapped in the walls and insulation and also probably the tunic making them "grow" together".
SO if it has been lying there for lets say 10-20 years...more than enough.
And also the moth damage, could have happened at any time.

Who would "plant" a uniform as insolation in a wall in modern times (last 10-20 years) after it was incorrectly restored from officer to Obergefreiter?
I am lost with that comment.
Yes I have been in an old house in Europe, My own family's, built in 1938 and used by the Polizei Waffenschule III as officers quarters in The Hague.
Even has an original Luftschutz bunker still in place! See here!

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ffenschule+III

[PZKG]

Well after the war people put old clothes in their walls for insulation...Pulled some out of my 1920 house last year myself.
That was the point...it could have happened at any time, especially in a poorer country like czechoslovakia.

[NickG]

Well after the war people put old clothes in their walls for insulation...Pulled some out of my 1920 house last year myself.
That was the point...it could have happened at any time, especially in a poorer country like czechoslovakia.

Sure it could have....they were poor in Czechoslovakia...they were also driving around in Kubelwagens in Czechoslovakia in the 1970's! (and understanding their value, keeping them running and cashing in big time when the wall came down!)
Anyway back to forensics...

__________________________________________________ _____
Lets save some of the best proof for last! ("enlisted use" proof)
Since the naysayers are so keen on ignoring all the clear forensics, claiming its clearly a rebadged officers tunic,
since such configurations are impossible, or unlikely.... lets study some more signs!
You can learn from it since everybody missed seeing it.

An officers buckle has NO sharp edges..so NO wear areas...Correct? Yes!
An ENLISTED buckle on the other hand (as we ALL know) does have sharper edges...so those can cause wear areas ....
Damage caused by rubbing...

On a smooth cotton officers quality uniform like this, it wears a lot faster...
You NEVER see such wear areas in that spot (corresponding with the top/bottom of an enlisted buckle) on an officer uniform...NEVER!
The double claw buckle belt is SMOOTH! Nothing is abrasive! None of my many officers uniforms show wear in that area!

You naysayers still really think this is a played with officers tunic? Really?

Here shown with my shiny aluminum dress belt,...just like the period image!
The wear spots all PERFECTLY matching up with an enlisted buckle sharp edges! Upper and lower and nice undamaged area in the middle!
It is a unique enlisted dress uniform with all the right forensics and charecteristics such as large enlisted shoulderstrap buttons, no dagger slit, enlisted buckle rub wear. In other words it is indeed an enlisted used tunic. There is no doubt.
Can I rest my case now?

PS:
I can understand why some people are hesitant to show their uniforms but I can stand the heat, I like being in the kitchen with the self proclaimed "Chefs"!

[NickG]

I never told you that this combination was impossible, I do not think anyone did. I told you it is not probable.

Not probable?
Officers double claw belts don't make such wear patterns, (not abrasive like this) proving its enlisted use even further!
All the dots connect...an enlisted belt buckle caused this...
A "best dress" uniform is not worn that much so it took little time to damage it like this and only sharp edge enlisted buckle fits that explanation. An officers buckle does not accomplish that, at least not in a short (non combat) time span (for "ausgehe" use!)
Anyway yes I am happy with it, an amazing combination; an "Obergefreiter-OA" officer's style tunic! Thanks for looking!
Now I really really rest my case!