My new M36 jacket - never cleaned original find

[NickG]

Last picture you showed is pre M36, the old Reichswehr style uniform - they all had french cuffs.

Yes standard with such cuffs. Of course. It was posted merely to illustrate that lowly corporals did in fact wear uniforms way above their pay grade...That's all.
It is a very rare image since most enlisted men would otherwise wear their government issued Waffenrocks, not such private purchase geschonte piped tunics. Try finding another one with this rank.Common with sr NCO's and usually seen in the officer Corps, the point I was attempting to make.

Anyway I shared this mystery uniform with the Traditionsgruppe of the 14th Pz Div who specialize in the Pz Gren Reg.108 history and reenact it as well. This is a serious group from Germany who were involved with the placement of this commemorative plaque to honor the units service and its casualties.


Received this message from them:
Hallo Nick
Ja das erste Bataillon hat das Jägergrün aus Tradition zu den sächsischen Jägern und Schützen Regimenter.Schones uniform ist ein sehr interessantes Stück, darf man fragen wo es her stammt?
mfg!
__________________________________________________ ________________

More on their comments and feedback from others soon. Still compiling info! Member Naxos was also very helpful in that respect
(behind the scenes)
The uniform or rather its "Waffenrock style insignia shoulderstrap " as already noted, predates the 1942 establishment of this Pz Gren. unit...a disconnect or red flag as noted by some very knowledgeable members in this thread The Pz.gren branch wiessengrün Waffenfarbe is a mystery for sure! (and its not faded Jaegergrün either which some predecessor units were allowed to wear
(a tradition stemming from the WW1 parent unit).
So we are delving into the subject matter of predecessor (earlier) related units (Schutzen Regiment 108 :1940-41) and other possibilities. (Grenzwacht-Regiment 108 is being researched as a possibility as well...Waffenfarbe?)

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...Gliederung.htm

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...ter/GWR108.htm



,

[naxos]

Yes standard with such cuffs. Of course. It was posted merely to illustrate that lowly corporals did in fact wear uniforms way above their pay grade...That's all.
It is a very rare image since most enlisted men would otherwise wear their government issued Waffenrocks, not such private purchase geschonte piped tunics. Try finding another one with this rank.Common with sr NCO's and usually seen in the officer Corps, the point I was attempting to make.

Yes "standard" and not above "pay grade" in the Reichswehr and early Wehrmacht. Let's not mix up uniforms from different time periods.

[NickG]

Agreed standard in the RW. No eagles and adopted/converted in the early Heer albeit the accessibility of Waffenrocks.
It was the RW version of the Waffenrock as I understand it. Similar piped Geschonte uniforms in the TR era were used
usually by higher ranking men in general (a different pay grade but in that period only). Shouldn't mix up eras! Thanks.

Not discussing the uniform but its components, namely the mystery straps with early RW font numerals:
We can rule out Pz.Gren Reg.108, Straps predate that unit (formed in 1942)
We can (probably) rule out its predecessor Schutzen Reg. 108 (mot.) which was the new designation of IR10 which was allowed jaegergreen piping...a traditions color some battalions adopted from its lineage of the WW1 unit which wore jaeger green dress uniforms.
The piping color is simply just too light (Wiessen green not Jaeger green...)

So Nexos PM'd me as a much better possibility: "Grenzwacht Regiment 108". These units were the result of the Treaty of Versailles and albeit being light infantry (very lightly armed) they were considered border guard troops and did not count as the regular army, a loophole for the army to grow albeit the treaty conditions.I am not sure about their farbe but the old style numeral embroidery (RW) certainly fits that time frame! Farbe wise they probably did use green , which was a police color/zoll color and even the later Bundesgranz schutz (forerunner of BW) adopted green piping... A "security" farbe which the SD also adopted! BGS is but darker.
It is still a very light green (Pz.Gren.) color. (kind of like SD toxic green, a state security farbe)

Intriguing theory this "Grenzwacht Regiment 108" explanation! In 1939 renamed "Grenzwacht-Abschnitt Reg."
Such bordertroop guard units btw were for the most part totally dissolved in 1939 when the war broke out (Versailles Treaty ripped up!) and during the mobilization these border protection troops were incorporated as regular fighting men in Infantry regiments
in their Wehrkreis area.

or plainly tailor stock left overs and adopted for a later unit as fancy dress uniform component. Who knows?
but we were certainly on the wrong track with the Pz.Gren.Farbe uniform idea! albeit the fact that the traditionsgruppe members of that Pz.Gren. unit in Germany still liked these straps (and uniform) very much...

Some progress! Much much earlier though! (pre war) and if the cyphered straps and the unifom were "born together" (certainly appears that way) it would be an amazing late 1930's "Grenzwacht" uniform! Thoughts? State security farbe Grün borderguard unit possibility?

Found in Czech republic...Sudetenland? Border area!

[NickG]

Nick, I believe the straps are more likely from a tunic of Grenzwacht-Regiment 108 - makes way more sense!

Yes! Thanks for the PM suggesting this!
Delving into this possibility further:

Such border guard troops (grenzwacht-Regiment) were probably even involved with operations that had to do with the annexation of Sudetenland, (1938) such as securing border bridges, crossing points etc...For the regular army to pass through...
it talks about sabotage, Trojan horse actions, masked security troops (getarnten "Sichterheitstruppen"...I assume that's border guard "security" troops). Fifth column, clandestine group like subversive agents involvement, so invasion preparations on the border...
Could it be related to such a unit? this tunic? They were also active at the border of Poland of course (prepping the invasion).
it talks about "Grenzdivisionen" border Divisions (Grenzwacht Regiments combined I assume). Exciting if there is a link to be made!

[Tim O'Keefe]

Thanks for coming back to the straps and with good research too

[blut und ehre]

Hey!!
Didn't the early boarder security units have this same farbe color??? Pre 1939??
Before the Panzer grenadiers??

[NickG]

Thanks for coming back to the straps and with good research too

Thanks goes to naxo for steering the thread in that direction since the tunic was poopood on as a funky Pz.Gren uniform!

The border security unit possibility (Grenzwacht Regiment related) is not a bad suggestion. Worth further investigation!
Btw the SS even had its own "Grenz-Polizei" unit, which fell under State security like SD and their piping was also light green
(toxic green)...
Diverting a little bit but this SS overcoat with cuff tittle (which was removed from it but still will with it) also shows security green farbe.
(in the family collection btw)

[NickG]

Hey!!
Didn't the early boarder security units have this same farbe color??? Pre 1939??
Before the Panzer grenadiers??

I believe so...but these border security units organized by the Heer were quite complicated and since they were on static duty that had machine gun companies (fixed positions) but also engineering companies! So called "sperr-pionier Kompanie units"....
Die Pionier-Sperr-Kompanien, components of the Grenzwacht Regimenten! (I assume black farbe??? but maybe also green? Again the Germans were playing games with the Treaty of Versailles restrictions and created many shadow units, also in the police)

Translated that means "obstacle engineering companies". Makes sense building or removing border obstacles/fixed positions!
Member RonC posted this very interesting dog tag a while ago. "Grz" = "Grenz" of course! = border in German.
I believe it to be related to engineering Company # 73 of "Grenzwacht Regiment 3", another formation (like the 108 "GW" Reg.)
that was disbanded when the "Blumenkrieg" was over...
Blumenkriege, or Flower Wars, a reference to the flowers often thrown by local ethnic Germans to welcome German forces
(AnschluB period, a possible time frame for this uniform)

We have made quite a turn in events with this possible unit theory, but since the uniform had an artifact in it (moth repellent dating to 1940) I assume the tunic ended up in the closet (1939-1940) when these border security units were all absorbed in the regular army (mobilization period) and these border security formations became defunct!
This also explains the very early font used on the strap cypher! An interesting possibility...and I am known to be open minded!
Thoughts?

[naxos]

View Post
Nick, I believe the straps are more likely from a tunic of Grenzwacht-Regiment 108 - makes way more sense!

Nick, I was strictly commenting on the straps, not the entire assembly. I have no idea when the straps and the tunic met.


.

[kapitein]

Makes 100% sense, PzGren farbe was introduced around 43 and I believe, because of the way the 108 numeral is done, that this is definitely an earlier war tunic.

[NickG]

Nick, I was strictly commenting on the straps, not the entire assembly. I have no idea when the straps and the tunic met.

.

Yes solely the straps were the subject of discussion in your comments! (plausible as being Grenzwacht-Border Guard related)
but lets look at it this way:
if the uniform was monkeyed with, why on earth put such rare straps (and matching litzen even ) on a uniform that will raise eyebrows as its an unusual combination! (but not impossible as the photographic record proves)

So it is true you don't know when the components "met". The thread pictures don't answer that question 100% for some....
In hand you will have a much better idea and such an interesting mix is certainly more plausible in the pre war years as the Studio portrait photos already prove.

These men were proud to serve in the newly formed Wehrmacht-Heer and their (fancy) uniforms reflected that status.
(pre-mobilization, so selected to serve...= status! Just like the small RW)

Now looking at the uniform as a "peace time" prewar garment...with old fashioned cyphers, NOTHING to do with war time Pz grenadiere!!! an explanation that caused red flags and alarm and with reason! Insignia predates that!)...
So looking at the entire ensemble in a new light, a different period, (Blumenkriege zeit) so with a different lens if you will...
The CCC spange (clasp) did not even exist yet!!! It is gone!!! There was no combat only anschluB events!

[naxos]

The CCC spange (clasp) did not even exist yet!!! It is gone!!! There was no combat only anschluB events!

Yes, it would be more like small annexation ribbon bar and sports badge or Reiterabzeichen

[NickG]

Yes, it would be more like small annexation ribbon bar and sports badge or Reiterabzeichen

Agreed! Uniform rehabilitated as far as I am concerned and now fixed!
Thanks again Naxo!!!

Medal wise a pre war look for sure! Tunic only has 2 medal loops! Here with annexation medal and sports badge (1938-39 look)
Never had EKII ribbon in the button hole either, another "early" clue!! Less is more! Certainly in the flower war period!

Btw Grenzwacht Regiment 108 belonged to Grenzschutz-Abschnitts-Kommando 13 and GW Reg 108 was located in Prussia in a city called Guhrau. (now modern day Poland, a city called Góra) and eventually disbanded when the war spread.

Grenzschutz-Abschnittkommando 13
(WK VIII, E 472 Freystadt)
Wurde am 26.08.1939 im WK VIII aus Kommandantur der Befestigungen bei Glogau aufgestellt mit Grenzwacht-Abschnitt
(Rgt.) 108 I. - III. Btl. d. Ausb.Leiter Guhrau
(Rgt.) 118 I. - III. Btl. d. Ausb.Leiter Fraustadt
(Rgt.) 138 I. - III. Btl. d. Ausb.Leiter Glogau
(Rgt.) 148 I. - III. Btl. d. Ausb.Leiter Freystadt


So GW Reg 108's standort was Guhrau where they formed and trained and that basically would place them on the Prussian Czech border, as their area of operations, (Grenzabschnitt "Mitte") another positive clue I feel. (uniform came from that region)

Thanks for the positive contributions solving this mystery. I am convinced! (don't have a cap soutache though...)

PS: and thanks to Moderator Glenn to give this thread another "go-around"!

[naxos]

something like this;

[NickG]

Yes nice!
or something like this! "Ausgehe uniform" of a "GW Reg 108" Gefreiter in 1939, no pocket badges earned yet...= peace time army!
(note bayonet rub area...as seen on my tunic!)
Here the prepositioning of troops in 1939 before the war starts!
(Illustration credit: Osprey Blitzkrieg book with modifications! Caption states: "Fahnenjunker gefreiter" Plate "A3" P.25, but unit modified by me)