Rare SS Pack Prototype Dagger

[krikke1980]

I agree Nickn.

The Prinz made his point that he doesn't believe in this dagger.
That is okay. If he only would accept that he, with his countless texts, cannot bring the believers on other thoughts.
It is indeed quit embarrassing and quit annoying.

[BobI]

Gee, Krikke1980 and Nick,
From what Wyeth, Brad or whatever his name is and Fred, I though I was the only one who feels this way. Do you mean there are other people with the same feelings and thoughts as I on this dagger? Meaning it is real and actually, the eagle looks more copper then brass to me, it looks like there is a lot of light hitting it.

[Frogprince]

Gee, Krikke1980 and Nick,
From what Wyeth, Brad or whatever his name is and Fred, I though I was the only one who feels this way. Do you mean there are other people with the same feelings and thoughts as I on this dagger? Meaning it is real and actually, the eagle looks more copper then brass to me, it looks like there is a lot of light hitting it.

Bob, In my early experiences in firearms/weapons collecting most guys agreed with the generally (professional) accepted use of different terms/words. And the manufacturing techniques that were used. That seems to be a problem here in this field of collecting now with the alloys of copper, and I had thought that the image I posted would clarify the matter but it now seems that it was not successful. Copper by itself is a common very useful metal that by alloying it with other metals changes its physical character - and even the color as the percentages of different metals are adjusted. The widely accepted term for these alloys is brass. At about 10% zinc there is a color change seen, that at about 45% ends up with a silver white color. Not as corrosion resistant as nickel silver that primarily copper alloy uses mostly nickel to alloy with the copper with the balance zinc. Fred

[nickn]

I don’t care what the eagle is made of
It makes no difference
It’s not a very nice looking bird but for whatever reason pack chose to use it

[nickn]

Duplicate post

[Mac 66]

I don’t care what the eagle is made of
It makes no difference
It’s not a very nice looking bird but for whatever reason pack chose to use it

Exactly, why the hell do we need froggys approval anyway, repeating himself on this thread like a troll time after time, i heard he refused to accept a free copy of the new reference booklet on these daggers, i wonder why , eh ?.

Most intelligent & knowledgeable long time dagger collectors know this dagger is genuine, if others do not like it, tough !

[Frogprince]

Exactly, why the hell do we need froggys approval anyway, repeating himself on this thread like a troll time after time, i heard he refused to accept a free copy of the new reference booklet on these daggers, i wonder why , eh ?.

Most intelligent & knowledgeable long time dagger collectors know this dagger is genuine, if others do not like it, tough !

Here is why I think it is significant. Unlike the German Navy that had gold colored daggers to complement the uniforms, the SS wore daggers with silver colored fittings for both the scabbards and the dagger parts (and hangers). When Solingen no longer had nickel silver available it went to silver colored substitutes. Pack in the early 1930’s like the other makers in Solingen all used nickel silver and could have with no problem at all made a hand crafted grip eagle if it wanted to out of nickel silver. Living in a very large city with a large industrial base for some projects I used to visit the industrial scap yards to acquire various never used surplus new metal stock that sold at a very steep discount as compared to acquiring it from a regular supplier. And while I could find some exotic alloys - I don’t ever recall seeing nickel silver for sale. Conversely brass is easily available.

As for taking free items, at a time when I was administering purchasing contracts I was offered all sorts of free stuff and gifts which I declined. Because while it might be completely innocent, it can also put you in a compromised position that could have been avoided - and if I wanted the book there are other ways to obtain it. FP

[nickn]

Here is why I think it is significant. Unlike the German Navy that had gold colored daggers to complement the uniforms, the SS wore daggers with silver colored fittings for both the scabbards and the dagger parts (and hangers). When Solingen no longer had nickel silver available it went to silver colored substitutes. Pack in the early 1930’s like the other makers in Solingen all used nickel silver and could have with no problem at all made a hand crafted grip eagle if it wanted to out of nickel silver. Living in a very large city with a large industrial base for some projects I used to visit the industrial scap yards to acquire various never used surplus new metal stock that sold at a very steep discount as compared to acquiring it from a regular supplier. And while I could find some exotic alloys - I don’t ever recall seeing nickel silver for sale. Conversely brass is easily available.

As for taking free items, at a time when I was administering purchasing contracts I was offered all sorts of free stuff and gifts which I declined. Because while it might be completely innocent, it can also put you in a compromised position that could have been avoided - and if I wanted the book there are other ways to obtain it. FP

Getting a complimentary book would put you in a compromising position!!!!
I am sorry that just idiotic
If you had it iam sure you would find fault
As for the eagle it could easily have had a silver wash which has worn off
Let’s forget the eagle for a minute
What do you think of the rest of the dagger?

[Frogprince]

Getting a complimentary book would put you in a compromising position!!!!
I am sorry that just idiotic
If you had it iam sure you would find fault
As for the eagle it could easily have had a silver wash which has worn off
Let’s forget the eagle for a minute
What do you think of the rest of the dagger?

Given the fact that my initial reaction was not on the favorable side I was not anticipating the offer, and where I’m from sometimes the guy who takes the “freebie” can be the one who ends up wishing he had not. And if the main attraction was the brass grip eagle, it would not have been one of my go-to books. Verdigris with absolutely no sign of either silver, nickel, or gold plating leaves just brass. Eagle forgotten, the same question about the rest of the dagger was asked in post # 980 that I responded to in post # 981 with no change since then. (That said, I’m not the only one who wanted to see the dagger taken apart.) The one thing that has happened on this forum very recently was an SA dagger that looked OK until it was taken apart disclosing a welded tang. Could the OP dagger have a new welded tang also? NOT, repeat, NOT that I ‘m saying that it does - my point simply being that as before with a high end item, and no inspection, how can I form a definitive opinion for the rest of the dagger with only the information that is currently available? FP

[nickn]

Again waffle
How is an sa with a repaired tang relevant to this thread?
And verdigris on a brass item that was originally silver washed is quite normal
I have some original 45/70 cartridges with lots of tin wash but showing verdigris where the wash has rubbed off from being stored in a pouch
I just don’t see your point
And no the dagger doesn’t have a welded tang

[nickn]

“my point simply being that as before with a high end item, and no inspection, how can I form a definitive opinion for the rest of the dagger with only the information that is currently “

Finally

so you can accept this dagger is genuine as it has been inspected by collectors with a hell of a lot more knowledge then you

[Frogprince]

Again waffle
How is an sa with a repaired tang relevant to this thread?
And verdigris on a brass item that was originally silver washed is quite normal
I have some original 45/70 cartridges with lots of tin wash but showing verdigris where the wash has rubbed off from being stored in a pouch
I just don’t see your point
And no the dagger doesn’t have a welded tang

You missed the point that the damage was not seen until the dagger was taken part. And you yourself stated that can see intact plating, that is not evident in any of the pictures of the dagger in question. And why not make the grip emblem out of nickel silver and be done with it, and if for some inexplicable reason that was not enough also plate it? FP

[Frogprince]

What I said was:

“my point simply being that as before with a high end item, and no inspection, how can I form a definitive opinion for the rest of the dagger with only the information that is currently available? FP“

Finally

so you can accept this dagger is genuine as it has been inspected by collectors with a hell of a lot more knowledge then you

Not me, the one that I would like to see inspect it has already asked quite a while ago - and was presumably ignored with no pictures being provided. FP

[N.C. Wyeth]

BobI waffles the best! Babbles endlessly as Jack of all Trades, but Master of None!

Again waffle

Where have you been? This whole topic has been a waffle from the start. The fact that very few people have and are still participating in it say's so much. At the end of the day, considering all that has transpired here - there is no defining answer to it's legitimacy. If so, it would all have to be built upon faith and speculation. And that's OK - as some collectors are good with a heavy dose of faith and speculation. And then there are those that prefer concrete evidence - which I still do not agree has been produced . . . yet. But I hold my breath for the day it is finally produced - and like many of you, would be so thrilled to see nothing less than so. In my very few years collecting, I've witnessed enough fiasco's of people believing in a myth that has ultimately been revealed adversely (the Kaltenbrunner fiasco was one of the best!) . . . and until better evidence is presented, I am "OUT" on this one - and will definitively bow out with this reminder. My best wishes and prayers of luck to whomever is left holding onto this mess now.

[nickn]

What I said was:

Not me, the one that I would like to see inspect it has already asked quite a while ago - and was presumably ignored with no pictures being provided. FP

So who would you like to see inspect it?