A couple of Cultural items

[David Fettes]

Will you two give it a rest and stop turning every thread into an arse kicking contest. I will remind you of the first rule of this forum.

1)Main thing is keep it civil, Respond to each other with civility and respect. This forum is about the "HOBBY" not personality's or sarcasm or politics.

So pack it in.

[Michael Fay]

I had no idea you so strongly agreed with me.

Since I am in common with you that liars and dishonest persons shall be banned from this forum the answer to my question is quite important and will do good to all of our members here for protecting them against fraudulent behaviour of other members.

.

This seems like a good time to explain to the rest of WAF that you are about to be banned from WAF by a moderator(who is keeping close watch) if you dont refund me in a very short time.
It is good to know you fully agree with the actions taken by me to get the moderators to notice you and force you to pay me.

Sincerely,
MF

[Capt. R]

rationale for irrationale times

Michael, returning to the subject of the thread, I happen to think you have a very nice, original period candleholder there for several reasons of which I will give very specific rationale, instead of only offering baseless conclusions as some nameless individuals are fond of doing on here:

1. The base of the holder has that nice hammered or "pebbled" look to it, a common theme of period TR wood items, definitely awakening the older Germanic styles;
2. The three tiered/three "armed" holder is reminiscent of many other period candlehodlers- some which have been shown on this very forum and declared "good;"
3. The characteristic square tops to each "prong" or "arm" along with the squared edge design of the arms appears period style;
4. My own wedding candleholder and yours have these traits in common. While I have no definitive proof that mine is actual ss, I did buy it inside Germany and it has been previously declared as being a good candidate for ss cultic status by Thorsten himself. By physical similarity and by association, yours also has a good chance of being period ss and/or TR.
5. In the event that the rune was added later, it may have been added later during the TR period. It is not uncommon in the course of human existence to re-use items and materials due to economic shortfalls. Everything old is new again. Old cherished family objects and heirlooms may be ressurrected in new traditions and given honored status - this may be one such incidence. The candleholder being an old familie heirloom, cleaned up and nazified and then later used during TR times for name ceremonies or birth ceremonies.
6. The raised portions of most surfaces wear and fade over time. Metal and wood get smooth and wear down. Ever see an old 14k gold ring after years on a finger? Ever see the grand canyon? Time does that to things.
7. Not everyone has the same opinion - not even experts. Just because one expert won't have it doesn't mean it is junk. I'm sure we can find another who likes it. I'm no expert, but I do like it!

And by the way, I'd love to see your close-up photos, so please PM them to me!

Here's mine again:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Thorsten B.]

Michael,

I do not want to make your piece looking bad - I want to help you saving money.

And it is not because of any Kindergarten cat fights due to a deal that did not went through between both of us - it is because I am sure that you bought that piece from a german collector/dealer.

And I am sure that this person is a member here on WAF!

Here within german collector scene several of these Art Déco types of wooden candleholders have been offered - with exactly your type of later added runic symbols.

Later added means: one buys a wooden candleholder from Art Déco period for about ten Euros or less on german Ebay and takes it to a wood carver.

For what?

Realizing and selling fakes, that´s it.

That is exactly why I asked you about the source which would be the key to the truth about your piece.

Indeed it was the very same piece that was recently offered to a collector friend of mine and he did not take it due to the stated reasons.

Steve´s "SS-chest" was also faked in the very same way and method and luckily he was able to trade it back for good reason.

So please stick to the topic and let us know more about your source - that will help other members saving money and that´s one of the reasons why this forum is in existence.

[Steve T]

I am truly sorry for anyone else (like the person you mentioned) getting ripped off like I have by you..

Hi Michael,

Are you referring to me and if so which piece as I don't believe I've been ripped off by anyone at this point? So you think I have a TR fake? ( I know the small plate in this thread, 24cm one is like more likely end of war or post war but we are talking insignificant amounts of money here, I bought it to try out a wax on that I wanted to use on one of my better pieces.)

Maybe chest? Certainly there was potential for disaster there. I didn't initially intend to discuss the chest as I was in process of considering to returning it to the seller or alternatively restoring it by rune removal, a small job. Anyhow its good we discussed it, I know some of you appreciated seeing it, overall nice quality piece though the runes were unlikely to be original.

Before the chest arrived it was understood that if I had any issues with the piece I would be returning it for full refund. I decided to return it and had no issues with the seller at all with returning funds. Actually I had most of my money back plus the spiral plate which I really like a lot.

[Michael Fay]

Hi Michael,

Are you referring to me and if so which piece as I don't believe I've been ripped off by anyone at this point? So you think I have a TR fake? ( I know the small plate in this thread, 24cm one is like more likely end of war or post war but we are talking insignificant amounts of money here, I bought it to try out a wax on that I wanted to use on one of my better pieces.)

Maybe chest? Certainly there was potential for disaster there. I didn't initially intend to discuss the chest as I was in process of considering to returning it to the seller or alternatively restoring it by rune removal, a small job. Anyhow its good we discussed it, I know some of you appreciated seeing it, overall nice quality piece though the runes were unlikely to be original.

Before the chest arrived it was understood that if I had any issues with the piece I would be returning it for full refund. I decided to return it and had no issues with the seller at all with returning funds. Actually I had most of my money back plus the spiral plate which I really like a lot.

Hello Steve,
I think your chest looks fine.
it is Thorsten who claims your piece is a fake. You need to address him.
The only reason he claims it is a fake is because I apparently once posted a photo of it for another member, and apparently Thorsten thought I had something to do with it and as he wants some kind of revenge on me, he attacked me via the chest.
I am very glad you do not believe Thorsten.
Neither do I.
Nor should anyone else.

[Michael Fay]

the honorable thing to do

Michael,

I do not want to make your piece looking bad - I want to help you saving money.

And it is not because of any Kindergarten cat fights due to a deal that did not went through between both of us - it is because I am sure that you bought that piece from a german collector/dealer.

And I am sure that this person is a member here on WAF!

Here within german collector scene several of these Art Déco types of wooden candleholders have been offered - with exactly your type of later added runic symbols.

Later added means: one buys a wooden candleholder from Art Déco period for about ten Euros or less on german Ebay and takes it to a wood carver.

For what?

Realizing and selling fakes, that´s it.

That is exactly why I asked you about the source which would be the key to the truth about your piece.

Indeed it was the very same piece that was recently offered to a collector friend of mine and he did not take it due to the stated reasons.

Steve´s "SS-chest" was also faked in the very same way and method and luckily he was able to trade it back for good reason.

So please stick to the topic and let us know more about your source - that will help other members saving money and that´s one of the reasons why this forum is in existence.

Thorsten,
from my photo you claim my candle holder was a fake.
Your reasons were incorrect.
The patina is consistant with the holder and the rune was carved from the same wood (with the same grain)when it was created as the rune is raised directly out of the wood, not carved into it.
In short mine was not added...it is carved from the same wood.

Now you are attacking some mysterious art deco pieces I dont have and have never seen. This is a pathetic ploy on your part .I am ONLY talking about the piece I posted. No other items . Please dont bring in random items that have nothing to do with my item; be they some vague art deco candle holders or Steve T's chest...none of them have any relevancy to my Leben rune Candle holder.

You are afraid to give any further honest explanations (as to how you can claim my piece is fake), now that I have said I have detailled photos ready to post after you dare to give any explanation to defend your accusation on my item.
You are again for the hundreth time exposed as as a fraud.
As far as my candle holder is concerned, it was not originally from whoever you claim it was from in your private emails to me--which also proves you doubly incorrect about anything to do with the actual item you have attacked.

And why do you keep bringing up Steve T. to me?
If you have a problem with him you need to talk to him about it, not I.
It would have been the honorable thing to do.

[Thorsten B.]

Huhu - Michael!

Are you still out there?

This is more entertaining than I thought so I´m on the way to the fridge.

Wanna have a relaxing cold beer as well?
What about a Mass Spaten or Paulaner?

Net lang schnacken - Kopp in´n Nacken!

Prost!

[Steve T]

Hello Steve,
I think your chest looks fine.
it is Thorsten who claims your piece is a fake. You need to address him.
The only reason he claims it is a fake is because I apparently once posted a photo of it for another member, and apparently Thorsten thought I had something to do with it and as he wants some kind of revenge on me, he attacked me via the chest.
I am very glad you do not believe Thorsten.
Neither do I.
Nor should anyone else.

Hold on chaps, calm down a bit Michael if you did post a picture of the chest that I was previously posted on here that's fine, I don't have a problem with it. If Thorsten thinks its a fake then that's fine too. We can have different opinions, its OK, its not the easiest of collecting hobbies, that's part of the fun, a challenge, gaining knowledge etc. If we wanted it easy we would just collect leaves from trees. When I asked you if you thought any TR piece of mine to be fake I meant any piece, my post was not meant to refer to the chest.

Regarding the chest, so we are all clear, these are the facts. I bought the chest but I was not that comfortable with it. It was in the background to a shot of Julleuchter and Thorsten expressed his opinion on it and that's fine, I welcome opinion either way on what I post. It was not a case of me not believing Thorsten or anyone else for that matter.

The seller sold me the chest on the understanding that I would need to be comfortable with it, alternative opinions if that were the case being respected. In this case I had doubts and I returned the chest after some deliberation and close inspection. The seller also had no issues with my decision and offered me a complete refund which I accepted. In sorting out the refund I took a very nice plate as a part payment and was very pleased with it. So a chest with opinion either way, a seller who was completely honourable with respect to refund, a story with a happy ending.

So Michael I do not need to address anyone, no problems at all and I don't have issues with the seller, you or Thorsten.

[Michael Fay]

whom to address

When I asked you if you thought any TR piece of mine to be fake I meant any piece, my post was not meant to refer to the chest.

.

But why ask me at all?
I am not the one to address.
Thorsten brought you into this , not I.
I cant tell you why Thorsten wants to bring up your TR piece as his proof for his false claim about my TR piece.

[Michael Fay]

Huhu - Michael!

Are you still out there?

This is more entertaining than I thought so I´m on the way to the fridge.

Wanna have a relaxing cold beer as well?
What about a Mass Spaten or Paulaner?

Net lang schnacken - Kopp in´n Nacken!

Prost!

I am still here and taking note that you are not able to back up your false claims, as usual .

Please enjoy your Bier,
might I suggest you upgrade your trinken from those watery brews to Doppel Bock Spaten Optimator?

[Steve T]

But why ask me at all?
I am not the one to address.
Thorsten brought you into this , not I.
I cant tell you why Thorsten wants to bring up your TR piece as his proof for his false claim about my TR piece.

OK, its no worries. You thought I still had the chest but I don't and I wondered if you meant something of mine and if so, which piece.

I've nothing to address. You think the chest is ok, I doubted it, thinking the runes were most probably added and Thorsten thinks the runes were certainly added. We can all have different opinions, discussing such items is part of why we are here and I welcome all views and opinion.

Anyway, this is not particularly relevant and surely not very interesting to people. Furthermore, no one has offered me a beer.

[Michael Fay]

OK, its no worries. You thought I still had the chest but I don't and I wondered if you meant something of mine and if so, which piece.

I've nothing to address. You think the chest is ok, I doubted it, thinking the runes were most probably added and Thorsten thinks the runes were certainly added. We can all have different opinions, discussing such items is part of why we are here and I welcome all views and opinion.

Anyway, this is not particularly relevant and surely not very interesting to people. Furthermore, no one has offered me a beer.

Actually Steve
you are reading too deep into my comments. I have 'no real dog in the fight' over your items-Except as a fellow collector I dont want anyone else ripped off . I am mostly focused on Thorstens false attack on my TR item. He brought you up in thread # 363
and in a few private emails to me as well.
Why, who knows..... I guess you dont care that he brings you up.
That is the only reason I made an oblique reference (without any names -on purpose, mind you ) to whom he mentioned (namely you) .

Might I now suggest any desirable UK stout ale for you. Or better yet, a Negra Modelo aged in cedar barrels from the mountains of Mexico

[Steve T]

Pictures for Thorsten.

[Thorsten B.]

Thank you, Steve!

What we actually see here is a ceramic bowl.

Now, what does this has to do with this thread about cultural items?

Well, it gives us as collectors and admirers of these objects a hint how things were somehow hidden within/woven into the design of and on a normal and daily used dish of Art Déco within households - before 1933!

Therefore not everybody will recognize on the first glance the significant sign of the movement: the swastika.

The number "30" visable as part of the maker´s mark defines in my opinion the year of production of the piece or at least the introduction of the complete service to which this bowl originally must have belonged.

Does somebody remember this mark and can draw his own conclusions?