A couple of Cultural items

[Thorsten B.]

I don´t think that this has to do with reverting to christian traditions.

Himmler was only searching for gathering and introducing those rituals of which he was sure - unimportant if that was misbelief or not - that they existed (sometimes way before christianization) and so he was from his view in the comfy position to blame the christian religion for taking advantage, misuse and so finally debase these - again: in his opinion - truely pagan and germanic cultural rituals and traditions.

THAT was his main agenda regarding his SS: to extinct any other religion and by rebuilding and modernizing rediscovering the oldest and most original cultural roots of the Germans and the Reich - their blood and their souls.

And so he gave them names and symbols: Germania, Totenkopf, Das Reich, Wiking...

The very essence of Himmler´s actions and concept were by rushing far backwards and pulling whatever in his idea was matching to his religious concept to bring all that forward for creating the future - creating it fast but not too fast, effective and finally total in such a way that they would never ever have to step only one step backwards on that way.

Even in the names one can get a feeling for that: the units´ names I mentioned representing that bunched power caused by the essence and collection of history for create a backdraft for the future symbolized by the other initial unit, the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler.

Without examining and understanding this - Himmler´s - concept of history and culture we cannot get a feeling and so on not finally the answer of what was the SS and - far more important - what she should represent in the future by looking at the past.

Therefore the biggest balk for historians of today are the unspoken rules of political correctness.

[JoeW]

Thorsten, I didn't write that RFSS was reverting to Christian traditions in presenting this cup. I wrote that he reverted to tradition in presenting the Christening Cup. Or perhaps it would be better phrased a "Child's Cup". It certainly isn't a shot glass. But he also presented the Allach candle holders for new children.

I think the Leibstandarte AH would find its historical roots in various bodyguard units that "protected" former leaders/rulers. Wilhelm II had his Leibgendarmerie and Garde de Corps units. I don't know if that encompasses Germany's pre-historic past.

[Thorsten B.]

That´s right, of course.

At least for me it appears that only this unit name refers to the actual situation in the period - Adolf Hitler was the connecting and driving link from past to future in this view.
Therefore members of the LSSAH wore traditional costumes of the Lange Kerls, the Leibgarde (Garde du Corps) of the prussian king Friedrich I. who was the historical key figure for developing his army.
Many details within the history and development of the SS show their self-perception as the zenith of historical development of german elite forces - like some products of Allach like some of the historical soldier figurines (Garde du Corps officer, Langer Kerl/prussian grenadier) and the rider statuette Alter Fritz which was ordered by Hitler in 1940 to give them as his personal present and award to the first 100 recipients/knights of the KC - which itself was purely a prussian decoration as well.

I wonder if someone can show pics of a typical Patengeschenk (gift as being godfather) of Himmler for some selected children which means a silver spoon and a pusher (in german language Schieber, an old-fashioned type of cutlery especially made for feeding babies) as documented in his gift lists.

[JoeW]

The carrying on of traditions seemed to receive a new birth with the Machtuebernahme. Traditions reappeared in the German Police, connecting the old with the new..........and dismissing the time of the Republic.

This cup was a Patentgeschenk, perhaps atypical by your definition, but nevertheless presented to one of his Patentkinder.

[Thorsten B.]

Joe,

on youtube you can find a very informative film sequence showing Himmler himself celebrating the SS wedding of Hermann Fegelein and Gretl Braun combined with the doubtless evidence that an oval wedding plate (the one showing in the SS calendar 1939, visable on Lindblom´s website) along with a round wooden salt pot and two silver cups was awareded to the couple by Himmler on 3rd of June in 1944 at the Obersalzberg, maybe within the SS barracks or even in the Berghof which is more likely the case due to the bride´s sister Eva Braun.

What one can notice: those two silver cups look different from the one you showed here - eithe Himmler used different ones within the years or depending on the occasion.

In my opinion that sequence is one of the most significant ones regarding documentated SS cult and religion.

[Etienne B.]

wooden plate

Here my newest plate.In my opinion a nice period made piece with the text:

''was bringt in ehren,sich wehren''

Translated it should mean like ''defend yourself with honour ''or ''defending yourself brings honour''.With in the middle the typical germanic symbols-the sword and the oakleave.

[Thorsten B.]

Surely a very nice - and uncommon - plate!

[JoeW]

Joe,
on youtube you can find a very informative film sequence showing Himmler himself celebrating the SS wedding of Hermann Fegelein and Gretl Braun combined with the doubtless evidence that an oval wedding plate (the one showing in the SS calendar 1939, visable on Lindblom´s website) along with a round wooden salt pot and two silver cups was awareded to the couple by Himmler on 3rd of June in 1944 at the Obersalzberg, maybe within the SS barracks or even in the Berghof which is more likely the case due to the bride´s sister Eva Braun.....

Thorsten, I would love to view that video, but the location has escaped me so far. I tried various combination on youtube, but no luck in finding that wedding. Did you keep a link for it that you can share?

[Capt. R]

Himmler at wedding

Here you go!

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...Nazi-officials

[JoeW]

Thanks Capt'n. I couldn't tell what the Marriage Official handed Fegelein. As he was holding it on his lap under his cap, I wouldn't think it was a loaf of bread. Thorsten, are you saying you saw a bread plate and salt celler? All I saw was a large ink well. I saw the two cups. Shape appears to be like the Patentkind cup I have.

What I did see was Himmler placing Fegelein's wedding ring on his right hand and Fegelein's TK ring on his left. I wonder if anyone thought to remove it when they executed him? Did you notice the rather large wedding ring on Himmler's right hand? And no rings on either of Bormann's hands.

Himmler appeared to be near-sighted as he had to get close to sign on the line as witness.

[Thorsten B.]

Joe,

I don´t mean the film sequence from the criticalpast medium - there is a different version in existence on youtube which I found about two weeks ago by coincidence and it cannot be find by typing in the typical search words as I had to notice.

Indeed the sequence I mean is a longer version of the beginning of Himmler´s attendance at the wedding ceremony of the Fegelein couple at the council house in Salzburg - that´s where this scene took place.

At first Himmler presented them the loaf of bread on the wooden oval bread plate together with the salt in the wooden salt pot and then they drink out of the two silver cups.

Before Himmler takes the bread plate and salt pot in his hands for presenting these to the couple they are standing on a desk nearby and the camera puts a focus on the two pieces so that it is clearly visable that the wooden oval bread plate is the very same one like shown in the official SS calendar from 1939.

Sooner or later I will find this sequence again since it was from an international source uploaded and not from a german source.

The silver cups do not look the same - the ones used in the wedding ceremony do show a more typical art déco style of shape: the cups look a bit like an hourglas and so the top of them is a bit somehow curved outward.

[ErichS]

Here you go!

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...Nazi-officials

That would be a great document to have in ones collection with all those signatures!

[Ojoneso]

thats my.

Sebastian

[Thorsten B.]

Many thanks for showing!

The cover of the backside finally shows the SS Julrad or Yule wheel.

So another cultural object of the SS can be added to the (wish) list.

[JoeW]

Joe,

I don´t mean the film sequence from the criticalpast medium - there is a different version in existence on youtube which I found about two weeks ago by coincidence and it cannot be find by typing in the typical search words as I had to notice.

Indeed the sequence I mean is a longer version of the beginning of Himmler´s attendance at the wedding ceremony of the Fegelein couple at the council house in Salzburg - that´s where this scene took place.

At first Himmler presented them the loaf of bread on the wooden oval bread plate together with the salt in the wooden salt pot and then they drink out of the two silver cups.

Before Himmler takes the bread plate and salt pot in his hands for presenting these to the couple they are standing on a desk nearby and the camera puts a focus on the two pieces so that it is clearly visable that the wooden oval bread plate is the very same one like shown in the official SS calendar from 1939.

Sooner or later I will find this sequence again since it was from an international source uploaded and not from a german source.

The silver cups do not look the same - the ones used in the wedding ceremony do show a more typical art déco style of shape: the cups look a bit like an hourglas and so the top of them is a bit somehow curved outward.

In examining records of Himmler's gifting habits, I found that at least on occasion of three weddings (Frank, Korner and Berkelmann), Himmler presented the wedding pair with 2 silver goblets and bread plate and salt celler (sometimes designated as wood). So it seems that those were gifts to the newly wed Fegeleins.